Buckwright vs Bucktrout ---- have I gone wrong?

[Sylvia C]

Can I pass the following past you all. Any suggestions???

!'m sorry that it is pretty long!


William Henry Buck(w)right is my great grandfather.

The information I've found up until the last 2 days is the following ..........

William Henry Buck(w)right, b.ca 1841, Stockport, Cheshire (census information)
parents William Buck(w)right and Sarah ???
one sibling ...... Margaret, b.ca 1835, Stockport (censuses)

I had not found marriage, baptisms, or deaths

Father William dies before 1851, Sarah and children are living in Oldham on the 1851 Census.

Sarah then remarries twice before 1861.......... 1. William Greaves in 1853, registered Oldham. William dies in 1856. She marries 3. John Hesketh in 1859, registered Oldham.

The only 1841 Census that I could find on ancestry that seemed to fit them was the following .......

1841 Census (pretty certain!)

Elizh Armison abt 1826 Weaver b. Cheshire, England
Margaret Bucktront abt 1835 b. Cheshire, England
Sarah Bucktront abt 1816 b. Cheshire, England
William Bucktront abt 1816 Watchman b. Cheshire, England
Willm H Bucktront abt 1841 b. Cheshire, England

Address:- Higher Hillgate, Stockport, Cheshire

(Bucktrout or possibly Buckwright on image)

1851 Census

Margaret Buckwright 16 ca 1835 Cotton Piecer b. Cheshire
Sarah Buckwright 39 ca. 1812 Servant b. Oldham Unm
William Buckwright 10 ca. 1841 Cotton Piecer b. Cheshire
William Greaves 35 ca 1816 Coal Miner b. Oldham Unm

In 1861, Sarah still says she was born in Oldham

She died in the March quarter 1871, so is not on the 1871 Census.

In the Manchester Parish records on ancestry over the last couple of days, I have found the following ................

1. Sarah Greaves marriage to John Hesketh, 29 August 1859, St Mary, Prestwich. She is shown as Widow, Washerwoman, age 46, and her father's name is shown on this as David Brierly, Coal Miner.

St Mary, Prestwich was the Parish Church for Oldham until the 1830s, and was still the favoured church into the 1850s and 1860s.


2. Using the above as basis, I then found her marriage to William Greaves on familysearch .............. 7 Feb 1853, father's name David Brierly.

Lancs-bmd has the following .........

BRIERLEY Sarah GREAVES William Oldham, St. Mary Oldham CE235/12/161
BUCKWRIGHT Sarah GREAVES William Oldham, St. Mary Oldham CE235/12/161

I then went searching on Manchester Marriage and Banns 1754-1930, and found the following ...........

William Bucktrout, Cotton Spinner, married Sarah Brearly, 20 July 1832, St Leonard, Middleton, Lancashire.

Witnesses …. Edmund Whittaker and Richd. Kenyon (probably Professional witnesses as they appear on several marriages on the same pages)

The lancs-opc version is the same, with the addition of the name of the Curate who married them, and that they were both "of this Parish"

I then found on ancestry the England & Wales Christening Records, 1530-1906, with possible baptisms for the children, Margaret and William Henry ............

Margaret Bucktrout, baptised 6 Jun 1841, Stockport, Cheshire, England
Father's Name: William Bucktrout
Mother's name: Sarah Bucktrout

William Henry Bucktrout, baptised 6 Jun 1841, Stockport, Cheshire, England
Father's Name: William Bucktrout
Mother's name: Sarah Bucktrout

ie, both were baptised on the same day.

fasmilysearch also has these baptisms, and the added information that they were at St Mary's, Stockport.

I found a possible baptism for Sarah, from lancs-opc????

Sarah Brierley - Daughter of David Brierley & Nancy
baptised 17 Nov 1811 St Peter, Oldham, Lancashire, England
Address:- Broadwaylane
David's occupation was Coal Miner


Putting this together with the 1841 Census of Bucktront/Bucktrout ................ do you think it possible that I have found the marriage and baptisms?? That the name was changed from Bucktrout to Buckwright between 1841 and 1851?

Can anyone find anything else to corroborate or demolish this theory???

[webwiz]

FMP have also transcribed 1841 as Bucktrout, but personally I cannot see it as that. What do they both think is the curly bit below the line at the end of the name? But I'm sorry I cannot see it as Buckwright either. It looks more like Bucktrough to me, although he does not normally write his t's like this.

However your research all seems to hang together. It would require some remarkable coincidences (not impossible) for this not to be the same family.

[Sylvia C]

Thanks, webwiz


that's about where I'm at!

I have, of course, checked, and cannot find a William Henry Bucktrout of the right age etc in later records. Everything for "my" family holds together as stated above.

I was just feeling a little unsure!

[Heather Positive Thinker]

Have you got any of the kids birth certs to confirm mums maiden name?

[Sylvia C]

oh yes!!!


I have William Henry's marriage certificate to Elizabeth Hall ......... name Buckright

Their child Sarah Hannah Buck(w)right was my grandmother.

I have her birth, marriage and death certificates

I have records of baptism and/or marriage from the Manchester Records on ancestry for 3 other children ................ looked at the images on there


and, of course, all census records, plus probate records for William Henry and his wife Elizabeth


All of them say Buck(w)right ............... with the only variation being the occasional use of the "w"




sylvia

[Darksecretz]

Ancestry have this transcribed as BUCKTRONT, though someone has 'corrected' it to BUCKTROUT

1841: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...ki1841&indiv=1

though the image to me does look like BUCKTROUT, the curly bit underneath the 't' I think is where the enumerators pen has 'caught' the paper and nothing to do with any letter/s. if you study the writing on the page/s I cannot find any letter that looks similar.

[Darksecretz]

I also think that it is highly possible that you have one and the same family, it could be that whoever wrote the name in the 1851 census heard it wrong, due to the lancashire accent, it could sound similar with a strong accent I am sure.

[Sylvia C]

Julie

The first time I saw the 1851 census about 4 years ago, I thought the image said Buckright ............ and I have this week submitted Alternate Information to that record.

The change from Bucktront to Bucktrout has been submitted since that time.

I've tried saying it to myself ...... and did wonder whether it could gave been the accent ................ but there are Bucktrout's around.


And how does that fit with the marriage record, and baptism records for the children??

[Darksecretz]

I really don't know, unless it got misheard.. but everything seems to fit so well....

was WH married in 1867? to Elizabeth Hall? and did he die in 1906? [if so there is a probate entry for him]

[Sylvia C]

yes, and yes ..........

...... I have noted that probate record, which was not granted until September 1913, 7 years after he died.


I presume this was because Elizabeth did not die until April 1912, and probate for her was granted September 1912.


I have not yet bought either will.



Everything does fit very well ................... that's why I wanted a second (or more) opinion!

[Darksecretz]

I take it you have seen John Williams Probate too then? oh thats sad.. husband and wife dying a month apart....

[Sylvia C]

Julie


Yes, I had ............... that happens so often though, doesn't it??

[Darksecretz]

Julie


Yes, I had ............... that happens so often though, doesn't it??

mmm it does, but it is still sad..

[Sylvia C]

Thank you all ......................

I feel confident that it IS my family, though why and how Buck(w)right came from Bucktrout will have to remain a secret

[Olde Crone Holden]

OK, this may be completely off the wall but I am struck by the fact that all this went on in Oldham.

A branch of my family lived in Oldham and one branch was called CartWRIGHT. We called her aunty, not sure of the exact relationship but I do remember that she pronounced her surname as CartTROUT, or something very similar, and my dad used to get furious about this - "Stupid woman, can't pronounce her own name". So I wonder, was this a very local dialect thing?

OC

[Sylvia C]

OC


that is very interesting!!!

I was born and raised in Oldham (!!), but had never heard that sort of pronunciation.


I shall have to sit here tonight, and try to recreate my Oldham accent and see if I can get buck(w)right to bucktrout!

It might take some doing ............... I basically left Oldham for good in 1959 when I went to uni :D

I do still have a pronounced Lancashire accent ............. but not sure it is an Oldham dialect.




EDIT ............

I CAN get a Cartraht sound


Buckraht??????????????



thanks !!!

[Darksecretz]

these relatives of ours sure have a lot to answer for don't they?? :smilee:

[Janet in Yorkshire]

What about Bucktroit to rhyme with Detroit?

Jay

[susan h]

Individual household census returns were delivered to each address, same as they are today (remember your return 2011?). Head of house filled out the return, if head of house was illiterate he/she would ask a friend/neighbour/relative to fill it out, and sometimes the enumerator. The household returns were then transferred by the enumerator to his book, on census 1841-1901 these are the records we see, only the 1911 individual sheets have survived. Therefore the census records we see have been copied by the enumerator, if the handwriting was poor it is easy to see how names can be mistranscribed. Potentially each name can have passed through at least three transcriptions - head of house verbally to say neighbour/friend, sheet details to enumerators book, book details to subscription sites indexes.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Individual household census returns were delivered to each address, same as they are today (remember your return 2011?). Head of house filled out the return, if head of house was illiterate he/she would ask a friend/neighbour/relative to fill it out, and sometimes the enumerator. The household returns were then transferred by the enumerator to his book, on census 1841-1901 these are the records we see, only the 1911 individual sheets have survived. Therefore the census records we see have been copied by the enumerator, if the handwriting was poor it is easy to see how names can be mistranscribed. Potentially each name can have passed through at least three transcriptions - head of house verbally to say neighbour/friend, sheet details to enumerators book, book details to subscription sites indexes.

I would agree with that as an explanation for the census returns. However, civil registration and parish register entries didn't go through a similar process, although there was always the potential for some misrecording due to unclear speech or human error on the part of the registrar.

Jay