Joseph & Elizabeth Hurworth HERBERT (father & daughter) where pre 1885?

[Christine in Herts]

I've put a Research Request thread in the relevant bit of the forum (hoping for someone within range of the Herts RO to have a look at the St Mary's, Watford, marriage register, to pick up the remaining details - occupation, witnesses, and the like), but I wondered if anyone had any ideas for me about this, in the meantime.

A friend asked me if I'd see where her late husband's middle name, Hurworth, came from. Ultimately, we imagine it came from the placename in the north, but it's travelled a bit. I've tracked it back to his grandmother and great-grandfather...

b ???? 1861-62 [M-entry] 1864-65 [d-entry]; Bow, Middx 1863-64 [1891] 1866-67 [1901] 1864-65 [1911]
bap ????
1871 ?????
1881 ?????
m 21 Oct 1885 St Mary, Watford. John William WIGGS, 27, B; Watford; s/o Thomas WIGGS. & Elizabeth Hurworth HERBERT, 23, sp; Watford; d/o Joseph Hurworth HERBERT [1885q4; A'try transcription; M01354-7;M07305-6]
1891 RG12/107fo107p2: age 27; 24 Queens Rd, Watford
1901 RG13/1314fo119p21: Elizabeth WIGGS age 34 ; Sunnyview, Bushey Hall Rd
1911 RG14PN7694 RG78PN379 RD140 SD1 ED8 SN197: Elizabeth WIGGS age 46, m25, ch3-3-0; Sunnyview, Bushey Hall Rd
1911-1929: ... no info
d 20 Oct 1929 [E&WNPC]; 1929q4 age 64 Watford. Elizabeth M(sic) WIGGS (I'm guessing that this is a mistranscription)
Prob 24 Jun 1930: WIGGS Elizabeth of Newlyn Bushey hall-road Bushey Herts wife of John William WIGGS died 20 Oct 1929 Admin London 24 Jun to the said John William WIGGS farmer. Effects 3369 0s 9d. [E&WNPC]

I thought I'd found her, born in/near Bow, yesterday - but the one I found seems to have been claimed by another tree, very convincingly, on Ancestry. Besides, the father's name was Charles.
Then I thought I'd got her today:
1881RG11/696fo148p48: Elizabeth H HERBERT, 16; 44 James's Grove, Camberwell, with parents Joseph, and Jane E. But there's a registration for an Elizabeth Hannah HERBERT in Sheerness at about the right date, so I had to relinquish her, as well.

I just wonder whether the father on the marriage register is a real person, or just invented to disguise illegitimacy. Something just doesn't seem to add up. Of course, she could be horrendously mistranscribed in both the earlier censuses, and just may not have been registered - or baptised.

Christine

[maudarby]

Did you see the other marriage at Watford in 1888
Mary Hurworth Herbert to George Colley. Someone on Ancestry had amended her name to Mary Hurworth Sullivan, father Joseph Sullivan
Moggie

[Elizabeth Herts]

Christine, do you live close to Watford? If you live close enough, I would have thought that the library there will hold records of the local churches. St. Albans library holds records for its churches and the surrounding villages.

I go over to Herts RO about two or three times a year, but won't be going for a while yet, as I have to get over to Aylesbury first.

[maudarby]

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1623&iid=31280_195102-00140&fn=Joseph&ln=Hurworth&st=d&ssrc=&pid=2408266

The above is a marriage between a Mary Sullivan, father Joseph & a Joseph Hurworth in 1861.
What do you think? I'll try & follow them through the census.
Moggie

[Christine in Herts]

Christine, do you live close to Watford? If you live close enough, I would have thought that the library there will hold records of the local churches. St. Albans library holds records for its churches and the surrounding villages.

I go over to Herts RO about two or three times a year, but won't be going for a while yet, as I have to get over to Aylesbury first.

Duh! Yes, of course I could go into Watford Central Library. What a twit I am! Thank you.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?h...c=&pid=2408266
The above is a marriage between a Mary Sullivan, father Joseph & a Joseph Hurworth in 1861.
What do you think? I'll try & follow them through the census.
Moggie

Thank you, Moggie. I spotted that earlier - but didn't note it at the time, because I wasn't going in that direction... and the woman's name had been edited to the wrong surname. And I had a theory - dangerous things theories, if you forget that that's all they are!

Don't spend too much time on this - I should be spending so much time on it myself.

Christine

[maudarby]

Hi Christine
I have been following George and Mary Colley through the census. She was born c 1843 Newington Surrey. She died in 1923 at Watford. Probate granted to Elizabeth Wiggs( wife of John William Wiggs). I bet she was her mother.

Moggie

[susan h]

Hi ladies,

Throwing these into the pot for consideration.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=1&gsfn=mary&gsln=herbert&f1=&f2=&f3=&f18=&f12__n=&rg_81004011__date=1843&rs_81004011__date=2&f29=&_82004011=&_82004013=surrey&_82004014=newington&_8000C002=&_80008002=mary&_80018002=&f7=&f8=&f9=&gskw=&prox=1&db=uki1881&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=7&h=7390242&recoff=

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1871&indiv=try&h=2482446

I think Mary's age in 1871 (original sheet) says 28, not 23 as indexed. Living next door Mary Sullivan (60) and son John.

[susan h]

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=SRYHO107_1568_1568-0156&fn=Joseph&ln=Hurworth&st=r&ssrc=&pid=809054

Joseph Hurworth, father Joseph (brushmaker as per marriage @ #4. Living Newington.

And 1841, http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/...n.St+Mary.11.7

[susan h]

In 1851 Joseph snr is entered as born York.............a possible baptism

nameJoseph Hurworth
genderMale
baptism/christening date14 Mar 1802
baptism/christening placeMICKLEGATE BAR CHAPEL-RC,YORK,YORK,ENGLAND
birth date13 Mar 1802
father's name Thomae [sic] Hurworth
mother's name Elizabeth

[susan h]

If all found is the family you are looking for none of the above proves where Herbert originates, does it? However, I haven't found a marriage between Joseph snr and Mary (1841), so wonder if her surname was Herbert? By 1851 Joseph snr has a wife named Eliza but can't find a marriage for them either.

Catherine Hurworth born 1848 (1851 census) is with her aunt and uncle, David and Maria Downs in 1861 and 1871, Ancestry have made a muck up of the return but it's on FMP, here's the 1871 http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...ki1871&indiv=1

As you'll see her aunt was born in Witham same place as Eliza (1851), Catherine's mother. This looks a likely marriage for David and Maria.............Jun 1847, Camberwell, 4/34, David Downs and also indexed Maria Cowler.

[susan h]

Joseph snr probably died 1864.

Deaths Apr - Jun 1864, Newington 1d/169, Joseph Harworth [sic]

There is a death for an Eliza Hurworth, Jan - Feb 1861, Newington 1d/149.

[susan h]

I think you need Joseph's (born 1841) birth cert to see what his mother's surname was. This looks like the one.

Joseph Robert Hurworth, Jul - Sept 1840, Newington, 4/295

[kylejustin]

that looks rather well done! i'd say that's a likely blue print christine.

[Christine in Herts]

FTF does it again!

I'll have a look later, because I darenot start now - I won't stop if I do, and I have a lot of singing stuff to do today, including some teaching!

MANY thanks to you all.

Christine