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  • Holdstock brickwall.

    Holdstock
    The following is a brick wall I have struggled with for thirty years and my cousin Joyce for around fifty years! If some help is forthcoming from fellow members, it will be greatly appreciated.

    We are looking for a potential connection to our ancestor GREGORIUS HOLDSTOCKE from WILLIAM HOLSTOCK. Please ignore the differences in surname spellings, there are over twenty variants.

    GH was born in 1550 in Harbledown Kent, and was buried 11th August 1605, but as yet his parentage is unknown.

    WH is thought to be have born around 1520, probably in London. There is a possibilty he had a brother John, described as a Woodmonger and it's the business of wood which gives rise to the possble family connection.

    WH was an Admiral - "Comptroller of the Queen's Navie." He oversaw the supply and victualling of the ships required by Sir Francis Drake, to face the Armada. Some of the timber was procured from woodland owned by Kent Holdstocks'. Another reason to hope for a connection. We know that the invoice for the wood was never paid, maybe it was never rendered, as WH died in office 1589. He was buried in a family tomb in St Mary at Hill church, which was destroyed in the Great Fire of London. Also, he was Church Warden there in 1556.

    His marriage was around 1543 to Margaret Powell, from a pedigreed Welsh family. Margaret died in 1563 and William married again in 1564, Agnes Clunn. WH lived at Orsett Manor in Essex, a house now occupied by Gillian Shepherd MP.

    Thank you.

  • #2
    Wow! You've certainly got a long way back in your researches!

    I guess you'd like for people to throw out ideas for possible resources? Then you can see if you've covered them all.

    I've not got much expertise in records so far back. Apprenticeship records, Church records, Tithes, Manorial records...

    Christine
    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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    • #3
      Having problems posting info

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      • #4
        1579 feb15th marriage of Gregorius to Martha Pamoure at Harboldown M 00829-1

        Edna

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        • #5
          There is a birth a daughter Mary 1583 7th Feb father Gregory Hovldstoke at Harbledown

          Edna

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          • #6
            John Holstocke 16 Aug 1584 died 1591 father Gregory Holstocke Harbledown

            Edna

            two more baptismas Peeter and Agnis around these dates father Gregory
            Last edited by clematised; 18-12-12, 00:11.

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            • #7
              Thanks Christine, as I said any help!! Thank you.

              Edna, thanks for your replies, but it's info re WH I'm after, plus parentage of Gregorius. I appreciate your work, but I have a complete data base of GH's immediate descendancy - both marriages and all offspring, he is my direct blood line.

              Once again, to both ladies, my sincere thanks.

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              • #8
                The investigator's motto "follow the money" is probably the only realistic way of proving a family connection. I'm sure you have exhausted most if not all of the possibilities but I would be concentrating on property records, deeds and wills.

                There are researchers who specialise in this type of record/time period (I'm not one of them) but it can be a huge undertaking to locate and read any relevant documents.
                Last edited by AntonyM; 18-12-12, 11:57.
                Retired professional researcher, and ex- deputy registrar, now based in Worcestershire. Happy to give any help or advice I can ( especially on matters of civil registration) - contact via PM or my website www.chalfontresearch.co.uk
                Follow me on Twittter @ChalfontR

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                • #9
                  I am intrigued to know how you got beyond the Commonwealth period of marriages from 1653 to about 1660 as so many of these marriages were destroyed? I have been lucky to find a perfect 1655 Commonwealth Marriage Document but not many exist so I understand.

                  I agree with Anthony the way to go would be through property, deeds and wills and the manorial records, also marriage licences though my earliest marriage licence is 1629 and all in early English/Latin and difficult to read and understand.

                  I presume you know how far back the registers go for the area you are looking at? In theory the records go back to 1538 but in reality many of the records do not exist for many reasons. I have been lucky enough to have been able to follow a line back in a small hamlet to about 1580 because the registers for my area have survived into the 1500's.

                  I presume that you have also trawled through the records at one of the Kent County Record Offices?

                  "GH was born in 1550 in Harbledown Kent, and was buried 11th August 1605, but as yet his parentage is unknown."

                  How do you know he was born/baptised1550 if you do not know who his parents were?



                  Janet
                  Last edited by Janet; 18-12-12, 15:37.

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                  • #10
                    I did realise late after I found those records that I was looking for the wrong person and it was when I found the marriage of Agnes Clunn in 1564 that I reaslised so left it alone.

                    Edna

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                    • #11
                      Regarding Janet's query on the 1550 birthdate, his age at death was known, therefore, we get a birthyear. "Simples!"


                      For the record, all the research that I have shown in my query, was NOT done by me. My late cousin, Ricky Holdstock, was a fully qualified full time genealogist. My previously mentioned cousin Joyce is getting on for 90, so better or for worse, I have been deputed to try my hand at solving this riddle.


                      So as an amateur, phrases like "follow the money" what the heck does that mean? What I require is down to earth easy to understand assistance. Thank you.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Layclerk View Post
                        Regarding Janet's query on the 1550 birthdate, his age at death was known, therefore, we get a birthyear. "Simples!"

                        Hm as death dates are often notoriously incorrect down through the ages and baptisms often took place several years after birth then I do not follow your "simple" argument, particularly as it was baptisms that were mainly recorded at this time rather than births. Sometimes the births are recorded but not always.

                        One of the interesting points about this site is that when people seek help on here then they are often challenged on the findings they already have, and it is those challenges that eventually get the person seeking help the answers they often want.

                        Anthony's point about "following the money" is pretty obvious to most genealogists/family historians as you will not have been able to get that far back without having found wills/marriage bonds/licences and most proably land owning so this is the way to go to get further back in your quest. For example one would not have married by licence in the 1500's/1600's unless the groom or the intended wife most probably had money.

                        Janet
                        Last edited by Janet; 19-12-12, 15:20.

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                        • #13
                          Lots of us have chunks of tree we've had to set aside because, even though based on info from an impeccable source, subsequent evidence turns up to show that we've followed a false trail somewhere.

                          My CHRISTMAS Tree is largely based on the efforts of a genealogist in another part of the line, who did a massive amount of work the hard way (and prepared a beautifully-drafted hand-drawn tree, of which I'm lucky enough to have a copy) - trailing round Records Offices, Archives, graveyards. In his tree, my Gx2-grandfather was married to (Mari)anne FOSTER, born in India. My own researches, were fortunate to throw up some extra detail and I found that hed been married (at least) twice: firstly to Ann(e) FOSTER, born in Hampshire, and later to Marianne Richardson COCHRANE, born in India. Similarly, in my husband's tree, we had his Gx2-grandfather, Josiah SCANTLEBURY, married to Elizabeth "Pardhue" (or Pardew) BEHENNAH, but there were some anomalies. It all fell into place when we realised that the lack of access to full detail of the 1861 census meant that we hadn't spotted that he was a widower, so hadn't found that Elizabeth née BEHENNA had died. By 1871 he was married to Elizabeth Oystyn/Austin née JENKIN. The match of first names had masked the change of wife. Actually there was probably another wife - Agnes Robins BESWETHERICK - whom he married in 1856, but who appears to have have died by 1861.

                          Christine
                          Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

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                          • #14
                            goodness christine! all that in one family? good example to do thorough research!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by kylejustin View Post
                              goodness christine! all that in one family? good example to do thorough research!
                              It does illustrate how consistency of name is no guarantee of consistency of person!

                              Christine
                              Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Christine in Herts View Post
                                Lots of us have chunks of tree we've had to set aside because, even though based on info from an impeccable source, subsequent evidence turns up to show that we've followed a false trail somewhere.

                                My own researches, were fortunate to throw up some extra detail and I found that hed been married (at least) twice: firstly to Ann(e) FOSTER, born in Hampshire, and later to Marianne Richardson COCHRANE, born in India. Similarly, in my husband's tree, we had his Gx2-grandfather, Josiah SCANTLEBURY, married to Elizabeth "Pardhue" (or Pardew) BEHENNAH, but there were some anomalies.

                                Christine
                                Yes, it is surprising how the second and even third marriages throw up unexpected and surprising results. I have a similar one to this where a first marriage produced three children and a subsequent marriage produced another 7 children, one of whom was my Great by two grandmother. I did not think to check out another previous marriage because all seemed fine with the tree that I had, but a distant cousin was in touch with me who was coming down the line of the first wife and had information he could not understand, that of a will left detailing so many names, one of whom was my Great Great Grandmother. It transpired she was sister in law/stepsister to the person who left the will, which opened up a whole new area of research unbeknown to me. The first marriage took place in London and the second marriage took place in Northamptonshire.This information led me to a whole new set of family which would not have been found but for the will, and the will would not have been found without the knowledge of the fact that there were two marriages. The will was found online at TNA and that would not have beeen found but for the more up to date ways of finding information.

                                I also have a first marriage of my grandmother that nobody in the family knew about, and would never have been found but for the online Metropolitan Archives. I would never have thought to check out a first marriage for her.

                                I have never been lucky enough to have had a so called completed tree passed to me, and I would appear to be the first in the family to do any research. At first I thought this was a drawback, but although I have spent many years researching in the old ways and methods, I do now embrace the new ways as well. Maybe everything is not online, but we do have a lot to thank the computer era for for these days with research which has made it much easier to find previously hidden facts on our ancestors.

                                Janet
                                Last edited by Janet; 20-12-12, 10:47.

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                                • #17
                                  Online resources have certainly allowed a lot of research that would have been impossible (or totally impractical) before.

                                  I just have to hope that I didn't cause too much trouble when my searches brought an earlier marriage to the attention of a family that hadn't known that their aunt had been married before! She was very generous to me in taking the time to reply, directly, to a letter I wrote to her, via an intermediary.

                                  Christine
                                  Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Christine in Herts View Post
                                    Online resources have certainly allowed a lot of research that would have been impossible (or totally impractical) before.

                                    I just have to hope that I didn't cause too much trouble when my searches brought an earlier marriage to the attention of a family that hadn't known that their aunt had been married before! She was very generous to me in taking the time to reply, directly, to a letter I wrote to her, via an intermediary.

                                    Christine
                                    I have just completed a project on my Great Grandfather whch has taken into account the first marriage of my Grandmother and the rather late second marrige of my Grandmother to my Grandfather, that nobody knew about either, late as in the 4 children were born before the second marriage took place, which children included my mother!

                                    Even now there is doubt cast upon the legality of the second marriage as first husband just disappeared, according to an online newspaper report!! I agonised over putting the information before certain members of my family, and in the end decided to omit the newspaper report, which proved my findings, although one cousin now has the newspaper report. I have had appreciative comments on the project, but no feedback as regards the marriages from the one I thought I might upset!!

                                    Like you, I just have to hope I have not caused too much trouble.

                                    Janet
                                    Last edited by Janet; 20-12-12, 14:10.

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                                    • #19
                                      Sorry if I confused you - by "follow the money" I simply mean that the most likely documentary traces your ancestors may have left which connect two people together are when property/land or other goods change hands.

                                      Within a family this is most likely at the time a will/estate is dealt with or on the marriage of a daughter perhaps. So you will be looking at probate documents, manorial records, property deeds and the like.

                                      As an example of the type of thing to be looking at ... A quick scan through the TNA catalogue brings up an "Inquisition Post Mortem" on William HOLSTOCK of Essex date 1589-1590. This is the record of the proceedings after someone's death which would deal with the ownership and disposition of his property held from the Crown. The reference is C 142/226/175 . Other entries in the catalogue seem to refer to documents that connect this man to the City of London. Of course the original research done by your relative may have examined these documents already.

                                      If you have not had experience of reading such old documents before I would recommend the on-line Palaeography course on the National Archives website .. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/palaeography/
                                      Last edited by AntonyM; 20-12-12, 16:22.
                                      Retired professional researcher, and ex- deputy registrar, now based in Worcestershire. Happy to give any help or advice I can ( especially on matters of civil registration) - contact via PM or my website www.chalfontresearch.co.uk
                                      Follow me on Twittter @ChalfontR

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Janet - "following the money" is not a term I've ever heard before, so is therefore "not obvious" which is why I asked. Althougn I stated that I have been studying Holdstocks' for around thirty years means, quite simply, that that was when I first started recording names. I have never looked at anything other than BMD or the Census. FH is a hobby that has to fit around a very busy life. I retired ten years ago from full time work, but ALL my weekends were taken up my being church organist & choirmaster. From 2002 until 2009, I was my late wife's full time carer. Now remarried, I have a very large garden, a large stamp collection and a large model railway all making demands on my time, plus my church work.

                                        I hope you will now realise that I am neither a genealogist nor a family historian, but the poor chap who has been lumbered with this particular problem. This does not mean I am disinterested, but this is the first site I've come across where it is I assumed I know more than I do.
                                        BCH

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