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Elwyn
15-11-12, 20:18
Anyone needing help with research in Northern Ireland is welcome to contact me for help.

Elwyn Soutter
Co Antrim

Ian Royal
21-11-12, 16:21
Anyone needing help with research in Northern Ireland is welcome to contact me for help.

Elwyn Soutter
Co Antrim

Hi Elwyn,

I would very much like to take you up on your very kind offer.

I have three branches that I am interested in:

William John Dargan (Farmer) married Margaret Maguire sometime around 1833 possibly in Moira County Down Ireland.
They had at least 2 children Mary Dargan b abt 1833 in Moira and James Dargan b September 8, 1838 also in Moira. James Dargan joined the Marist Brotherhood.

The other branch is John Munnelly occupation Tailor father of John Munnelly b abt 1896 in County Mayo. The son John moved to Newcastle upon Tyne and married there on September 11, 1920.

Lastly, Hugh Callaghan (Farmer/Agriculturist) married Mary? sometime around 1828 and had the following children:
Michael Callaghan born Abt. 1828
Hugh Callaghan born Abt. 1829
Joseph Patrick Callaghan born Abt. 1833
Edward Callaghan born Abt. 1839
All of the sons moved to Newcastle upon Tyne before 1856 by which time their father Hugh Callaghan was dead.


Not a lot to go on but any help would be gratefully received.

Ian

Elwyn
26-11-12, 23:19
Ian


I searched Griffiths Valuation for the surname Dargan in the parish of Magheralin (which includes Moira). In 1864, the only households listed were both in the townland of Taughlumny. One was a Roger Dargan and the other Richard, probably a relation as he was subletting from Roger. In 1901 there is still a Dargan family farming there:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Moira/Toughlumny/1242932/

Your best bet is probably to search the RC parish records for the marriage and births. The parish that covers Moira is Magheralin, and their baptism and marriages start in 1815. A copy is held in PRONI, Belfast under ref MIC1D/26. The records are not on-line anywhere as far as I am aware, unless Rootsireland have them.



I looked for a John Munnelly, son of John Munnelly, tailor in the 1901 census. This is the only one that fits:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Crossmolina_North/Church_Street/1574084/

That would put your John’s date of birth back to around 1891. (You thought he was born c 1896).

Same family in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Crossmolina_North/Crossmolina__a_/701797/

I think the parents in this were John Munnelly and Bridget McNulty whose marriage was registered in Ballina Apr – Jun 1891 Volume 4, page 7.

What looks like John Munnelly jnr’s birth was registered in Ballina in Jul – Sept 1891 Volume 4, page 13.


The Callaghan name is too common and the marriage too early to be able to trace anything without more information. Usual advice in this situation is to exhaust all sources in GB in the hope of finding a clue as to where the sons came from in Ireland. Check every census in case it says more than Ireland as place of birth; checks wills, obituaries, military records; gravestones etc in the hope that a place of birth is mentioned.


Elwyn

dosborn
28-11-12, 10:57
Elwyn

I would very much appreciate your help.

My GG Grandfather was William Moore McMahen who I believe was born in County Armagh in about 1811. His parents were James McMahen and Ann Moore. William came to Australia around 1840 (I haven't been able to find a record of his immigration though) and married Margaret Keys who came from County Tyrone (along with her parents George and Margaret and lots of brothers and sisters). William and Margaret married in the Presbyterian church in Melbourne although I understand that the McMahens were Methodists. William died in 1892 in Victoria, Australia. I have not been able to locate any record of William's birth, or any records of all of any siblings, or his parents James and Anne. I am researching our family history for my elderly father whose McMahen father died when he was an infant and has spend his life wondering about his paternal roots. Any help you could give would be very much appreciated.

kind regards
Debra

Elwyn
28-11-12, 12:52
Debra,

Statutory registration of births and deaths didn’t start in Ireland till 1864. Protestant marriages were registered from April 1845 onwards. So you won’t find statutory birth or marriage certificates for the McMahen family in the early 1800s. You will need to rely on church records (where they survive).


Irish tradition was to marry in the bride’s church after which she would generally attend her husband’s. So if the Keys family were Presbyterian that might account for the Presbyterian marriage when the McMahen family was Methodist.

Methodism started as an evangelical society within the Church of Ireland and did not become a separate denomination until around 1818. Even after that date many Methodists continued to use the Church of Ireland for baptisms and marriages, especially those who did not want to split from the mainstream church. It was 1878 before all their baptisms and marriages were conducted in a Methodist church.

So in the McMahen’s case, you can be pretty sure that William’s baptism and his parent’s marriage would have been conducted in the Church of Ireland. Your problem is that there are 29 parishes in Co Armagh. If you don’t know where in the county the family came from, you might need to search all 29. In addition a lot of early Church of Ireland records have been lost, in a fire in Dublin in 1922. (Ironically they had been sent there for safe keeping). Copies of the surviving records are kept in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast, but are not on-line anywhere as far as I am aware. So you would need to go through them there (or pay someone to do it for you).

You will need to be flexible when searching the records with regard to the spelling of the surname. You can expect to find it varies. McMahon is a more common spelling in Ireland.

Map of parishes in Armagh:

http://www.ancestryireland.com/database.php?filename=map_armagh

You can see where there were McMahon families in Armagh in the mid 1860s on the Griffiths Valuation site. (157 households are listed). It shows the various parishes, so you might start with those where the name is most common.

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch

There are no surviving censuses for Co. Armagh prior to 1901 so unfortunately you won’t get any help from that source either.


Elwyn

Del 80
30-11-12, 18:27
Elwyn, I wonder if you could help find a death for me, Samuel Clarke was born in 1865 at Saul, Co.Down, he married at Kilmegan, in 1896, to Susannah McDowell, in 1899 he was jailed for a serious assault on his wife, at Dundrum Co. Down, for which he only got 6 months........after that nothing can be found on him, his wife and two children are in Ardrossan, Scotland in 1901, but there is no sign of Samuel, in 1912 she re-marries, in Scotland, and is given as a widow. I have numerous posts out on this subject, but all to no avail, any help appreciated, Regards Del.

Elwyn
01-12-12, 10:09
The evidence so far indicates he was alive in December 1899 when he was sent to Prison, and dead, or presumed dead, by 1912. Searching all the deaths in Ireland for the period 1900 – 1912, I see only 4 of people who are of roughly the right age. All happened to be in Belfast.

1860 – Jan/Mar 1907
1864 – Jan/ Mar 1909
1864 – Jan/Mar 1909 (Samuel James Clarke)
1871 – Apr/Jun 1908

You could try ordering these from GRO Roscommon to see if any fits. (They cost €4 each if you give the full reference details from Familysearch). Bear in mind that the age at death was not verified in any way. It was just the best guess of the informant who, perhaps, may not have known the deceased that well. For example if he died in the workhouse, or was found alone somewhere by a neighbour. So it could be out by a good few years.

Of course if his wife just presumed him dead, and he was in fact still alive, you have many more deaths to search through. And who is to say he died in Ireland? There’s no really easy way of tracking his man down in that situation. Or not one I can see.

I looked to see if he was in prison or the workhouse in Ireland in both the 1901 & 1911 censuses, but he doesn’t appear to be there, at least not if he gave the correct age and county of birth. (There were a couple of partial fits in the 1911 return for Belfast workhouse of SCs who were labourers aged 40 & 35 respectively, but both claimed to be single.)

dosborn
02-12-12, 04:44
Thank you Elwyn. I appreciate your advice. It confirms that the task is a difficult one. I have tried most of the resources you suggest but will try the others.

kind regards

Debra

Jen~Ealogy
24-01-13, 22:13
Hi Elwyn, this is a very long shot as I have so little info to go on, but I am trying to find a third GGF. All I have on him is his name Michael Flinn, born about 1798 in Ireland. No knowledge of where in Ireland unfortunately
In 1841 I have him as a labourer aged 35 of Corbetta Road, Salford Manchester.
He married Mary Whalley born 1808 in Lancashire. At Cathedral Manchester on 4/11/1833.
And in 1861 he was 63 and living in Ancoats Manchester.

Nothing much to go on I'm afraid but would appreciate anything you might turn up. Thank you.

Elwyn
25-01-13, 16:22
You don’t say what denomination Michael was, but I’ll assume he was RC. Very few parishes outside Dublin have records that go back to the 1790s, so there’s a fair chance that you won’t be able to find his baptism due to lack of records. You won’t get a birth certificate either as they did not start till 1864. No censuses in Ireland before 1901.

To have any chance of tracing his family you need to try and find at least his parish in Ireland if not his townland. The normal advice in this situation is to exhaust all English sources in the hope that one of them will reveal more about him. Standard sources are to check all censuses. Sometimes people put more than just Ireland as place of birth; military records if applicable, obituaries, wills and gravestones. Poor law applications: If he applied for assistance to the Poor Law Board then normally their records would contain details of his family and where he came from in Ireland (needed because in some circumstances he could be returned to that Board, if destitute).

But it can be extremely difficult to trace someone’s origin in Ireland for that era.

Jen~Ealogy
25-01-13, 16:30
Thank you Elwyn, I figured as much I don't think I will ever find more on him, though i will try the Poor Law applications.....you never know. Many thanks Elwyn.

annabel
28-01-13, 06:01
Hello Elwyn

I am trying to find the birth of Samuel Brush on his army records it says he was born 1798 birth parish Ballynappully. birth town Augher County Tyrone, would like any thing on him or ideas where to look.

Thank you Annabel

Elwyn
31-01-13, 12:36
There’s no parish named Ballynapully in Co Tyrone (nor anything similar that it might be a mis-spelling of). Augher is in the parish of Clogher.

I suspect that Ballynapully might be the townland that Samuel came from though I can’t see any in the parish of Clogher with that or a sufficiently similar name. Perhaps Augher was just his postal town and he actually lived nearby in a different parish? You can look at all the townlands and parishes in Tyrone on the attached link:

http://www.seanruad.com/

You don’t say what denomination Samuel was. His birth is well before the start of statutory registration in Ireland (1864) and so baptismal records are the normal fall back option for finding a birth record. However in this case, according to the PRONI website, none of the main denominations records for the parish of Clogher go back to the 1790s. (The earliest are the local Presbyterian records which start in 1836).

Looking at Griffiths Valuation for 1860 there were Samuel Brush households near to Clogher in the townlands of Cavan O’Neill, Drumaslaghy and Shantavny (parish of Carnteel) and in Cullentra (parish of Killeeshil). (Possible relatives?)


The Cavan O’Neill Brush family were Presbyterian (1901 census).; likewise Drumaslaghy & Shantavny families.

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

annabel
31-01-13, 13:50
Thank you for your reply I could not find a place called Ballynappully

All I have on Samuel Brush is his army service record found on FMP under Chelsea pensioners records, which says birth parish Ballynappully. birth town Augher County Tyrone, Ireland

I am trying to find the family of a Catherine Brush born in Gibralter 1827 who married a George Stevens her father on their wedding certificate is a Samuel Brush, as this Samuel Brush was in the army and was in Gibraltar at the time of her birth wondering if there is a link.

Ann

susieq13
03-02-13, 17:14
Hi Elwyn - I am trying to track down a marriage record on behalf of my mother- in - law. Her great-grandparents emigrated to Canada in 1834. Alexander McKee married Jane Brown of Coleraine some years before that. The family was Presbyterian. When emigrating they arrived with several children so I assume they were married around 1820 or so. One child was Alexander McKee born 1832 in Knockintern" (sp?). Can you point me in the right direction. Needless to say, with a name like Jane Brown I haven't found any birth records! And Alexander seems to be a mystery too! Any help you can give would be greatly appreciated.

Elwyn
04-02-13, 22:29
Statutory recording of Presbyterian marriages started in 1845, and of all births in 1864. Prior to that you have to rely on church records. There’s no comprehensive index and such records as there are are mostly not on-line. (Some records have been lost). If you don’t know where the marriage took place it’s sometimes a needle in a haystack.


Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church so if she came from Coleraine, and was Presbyterian, I’d search the local Presbyterian Church records. There are 3 Presbyterian churches in Coleraine plus a Reformed Presbyterian church. Only the 2nd has records for the period pre 1845. They start in 1809, so it would be worth checking them out. There’s a copy in PRONI, Belfast. You would need to get someone to look them up for you.

The townland the child was born in is almost certainly Knockantern which is just outside Coleraine. On the east side of the River Bann, about half a mile south of Coleraine. I looked in Griffiths Valuation for the 1860s but there were no Brown families listed in that townland at that time but if they were weavers or agricultural labourers they often would not be listed, so it’s not conclusive. No Browns there in the 1901 census.

Mark Emmett
11-02-13, 19:17
Hi Elwyn,

I would very much like your help

I am researching my family tree and hope that you may be able to help me.I have only been able to trace my family members back as far as below.

My great great great grandfather Patrick Emmett who i believe to have been born about 1810 Ireland.(No other information available as yet).

My great great grandfather Patrick Joseph Emmett born about 1831 in Galway Ireland.
Came to England (don't know when,maybe during the famine ?).
Married Elizabeth Anderson in 1859.
Children (x9) William Bernard Emmett being my great grandfather.

I have tried but as yet am unable to find out any more information.

Hope you can help.

Many thanks

Mark

Mark Emmett
11-02-13, 19:53
Hi Elwyn,

This may or may not help with my previous request.

Patrick Joseph Emmett is thought to have been born in Cloncoe in the parish of Ballynakill on the 11th Nov 1831 but this has not been confirmed.

Thanks

Mark

Elwyn
12-02-13, 10:28
Irish research for the period you are interested in can be very difficult, as you have probably already discovered. There are no censuses before 1901 and many parishes don’t have records that go back to the early 1800s.

Emmet(t) is not a common name in Co Galway. There are none in Griffiths Valuation (1856) and none in the 1901 census, anywhere in the whole county, let alone in Clonco. The name is a bit more common in neighbouring Tipperary. There’s only a handful of Emmett birth, deaths & marriages in Co Galway in the statutory registers, and they are nearly all for the 20th century. (Statutory birth & death registration began on 1.1.1864 in Ireland).

According to the site below, the RC parish records for Ballynakill parish start with baptisms in 1839 (with gaps). They don’t have any marriage records before 1870. So if PJ did come from Clonco, you won’t be able to confirm that for certain from any church records. You could check the parish records anyway. Though you evidently won’t find PJ’s baptism, you might find that of any siblings born after 1839. That would at least tell you whether there was an Emmett family in Clonco at the time, and should tell you the parents names.

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse/counties/rcmaps/galwayerc.htm

Usual advice in this situation is to exhaust all English sources for further information about where the family came from. Good sources are poor law applications which usually contain details of the person’s parish in Ireland, plus other family they may have. Check every possible census. Census returns sometimes include exact place of birth, instead of just “Ireland”. Look out also for other Irish people nearby in the censuses. Immigrants often settled near people they knew from home. Check any military records, old diaries, gravestones, family bibles, wills and obituaries. Birth certs for some locations (e.g. Scotland, save for 1856 to 1859) include place of marriage of parents. Marriage certs in some locations (e.g. US States) can include places of birth, parents, etc for bride and groom. Funeral home records can be very informative. Death certs (e.g. US, Australia & Scotland) can show parents names. If PJ married in England in 1859 then his marriage cert should have his father’s name and occupation. Here are the links for Griffiths and the 1901 census for Clonco (mis-spelled Cloneo). http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Galway/Woodford/Cloneo/

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch (http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch)

Mark Emmett
12-02-13, 14:24
Thank you Elwyn,

I thought this was going to be a tough one to crack, thanks for your time,advice and links.

Mark

steward
25-02-13, 16:22
Hi Elwyn,im trying to find out about the Healy family,i dont have alot to go on,my nan was Mary Josephine Healy i have other Healy names not sure if they are her siblings,Mary A Healy,Margaret Healy,John J Healy,Marianna Healy,Esther G Healy,Kathleen Healy i think all of these were born in Ireland,i dont know which of these are my nans mother and there are no signs of her father,they moved to Birmingham UK and are registered at a property in 1945.Any help you could give me would be greatly appreciated im at a dead end.

Elwyn
26-02-13, 08:01
Searching the Irish civil indexes for Mary Josephine Healy brings up over 18,000 possible matches. It’s a very common name and so you need to try and narrow the field a bit.

You need to try and find some event in England that will help identify her or her family. Do you know of a birth, marriage or death that you can order to get an age and other personal particulars?

Are there any wills, obituaries or gravestones with family information? Were any of this family in England in 1911, and you could look for them in the census?

steward
26-02-13, 11:02
Hi Elwyn thankyou for getting back to me,my nan Mary Josephine Healy was born 1926 and past away 29th September 1992 aged 79yrs she is buried with her husband at the woodlands cemetary Birmingham West Midlands,her husbands name is Alexander George Steward they married in Birmingham june 1943.Iknow they lived at 4 Milverton terrace Johnstone Street Birmingham with Margaret Steward,Mary A Healy and in 1947 they are with Margaret Healy,John J Healy and Marianna Healy,Marianna was from Italy and John J married her over there in 1947 her maiden name was Zampiro.in 1955 my nan Mary J Healy and my grandad Alexander G Steward lived at 87 Edwards rd Erdington Birmingham and in 1960 144 Ludlow rd.In 1955 Marianna,Mary A,John J Healy,Leonard Norris and Esther G Norris (Healy)all lived at 89 Edwards rd Erdington,in 1960 it was just Marianna,Mary A and John J Healy have no address for them.Esther G Healy married Leonard Norris in 1949 Birmingham he was from Trinidad.There was also another sister Kathleen Healy i dont know if she stayed in Ireland there is no mention of her.This is all i have,i know its a long shot,thanks again for getting back to me.
Regards
Donna

steward
26-02-13, 20:10
Hi Elwyn,i have made a mistake on the above message i sent you,i have found out a little bit more since that message i hope this makes it a little easier.Mary Josephine Healy was born 22 May 1913 she had 2 sisters Esther G Healy born 6th March 1914 and Kathleen Theresa Healy born 19th October 1921,she had a brother John J Healy not sure of his D.O.B fingers crossed you may find something,thankyou very much for the help i really appreciate it.
Regards
Donna

steward
26-02-13, 21:52
Hi sorry to message again i have just been given some info that may help,Mary Josephine Healy s sister,Esther Gertrude Healy,registered quater april-june 1915,registration district Dublin South volume 2,page 605 country Ireland could i get mothers name from this? thankyou.

Elwyn
27-02-13, 08:03
Yes you should get the mother’s details from that. Go to the GRO Roscommon website: www.groireland.ie/ (http://www.groireland.ie/) Download the application form you need, and complete with the information you have, including the location, year, quarter, Volume & page number. Put that information on the lines for date and place of the event etc. Don’t worry if you have to leave some boxes blank, eg PPS number. Be sure to tick the box marked photocopy, if that suits you as it’s cheaper. You then either fax or post the form off (there is no e-mail option for certs pre 1.1.1922). Their turnaround time is 7 to 10 days plus however long the post takes. Should cost 4 euros if you provide accurate data.

I’ll have a look for births of the others for you but familysearch is down at present and so I can’t access the database.

Elwyn
27-02-13, 17:43
I can see a birth for a Kathleen Florence Healy birth in Dublin South Oct – Dec 1921 Vol 2 page 354. Also Mary Josephine Healy Apr – Jun 1913 Dublin North Vol 2, page 477. That might be your nan.

If you order a copy of Alexander & Mary’s marriage cert that should give you her father’s name, which you can then use to ensure you have the right birth certificates. The marriage cert will cost £9.25 from GRO at Southport.

Rach
02-04-13, 12:49
hi Elwyn
Thanks for your offer

I am trying to find information on my gtgt grandfather and am new to Irish research
This is what I know

JAMES GREEN b.c.1857 Antrim, Ireland (family oral history says in Ballymena)
I can find no record of him before 1881
He married Jane Ann NICHOLAS around 1875- 1880 (she was born in Wales and still there in 1871) but I cant find the marriage in Wales or England
James is in Walker, Longbenton Northumberland England with his wife and children on the 1881 and 1891 census a shipwright/ ship carpenter.
They had 6 children in Walker.
Sometime between 1891 and 1895 the family moved to Belfast, Ireland.
I have been told they lived in Rowan St, Belfast
I found a death Burials Belfast city cemetery Mrs Jane Green age 42, last residence 29 Rowan St, Earth Burial, M1 199 for his wife
On the 1901 census I found James age 43 a shipwright at Rowan St, Belfast a widower with 2 of his English born children and a new child George GREEN age 6 born Belfast, all presbyterian
On the 1911 census I found what appears to be James at Rowan St, Belfast but with a new wife Jane however he is only 45, a labourer and Church of Ireland (none of his children are there, just an adopted daughter)

I would love help with finding James birth, either of his marriages, the birth of his son George and what happened to his son George whom I cant find on the 1911 census (his 2 daughters on the 1901 census are accounted for, one died 1902 in Belfast, the other went to Wales)

thanks
Rach

Elwyn
05-04-13, 10:25
Rach,


The couple in the 1911 census are not your family. They had been married 20 years and were born in Belfast. Wrong denomination and wrong type of employment. It’s just another James Green in the same street.

The 1901 census at 29 Rowan St, looks to be your family OK but I can’t see your James (or his children) in Ireland in the 1911 census and suspect they had left again. I’d be inclined to search the 1911 English & Scottish censuses for him.

James Green is in the Belfast Street directory at 29 Rowan St in 1895 & 1896 but he’s not shown for 1892 so I’d guess he arrived in Belfast between 1892 and 1895. (I don’t have access to 1893 or 1894). The 1907 street directory list no 29 as being occupied by J. Smith, shoemaker, (with the other James Smith, labourer, at no 3). So your family had left by 1907.

I can’t see any marriage in Ireland to Jane Ann Nicholas and suspect they married outside Ireland. There is a marriage between a James Green and a Jane Nicholas in Paisley, Scotland in 1879. GROS ref 573/00 0342. You can get a copy of the certificate from the Scotlandspeople site. A lot of people from Co Antrim went to work in the Glasgow area so it wouldn’t be surprising to find James there. If it is the right couple, the certificate will list both James parents which will be a big step forward in finding his family around Ballymena.


Statutory recording of births only started in Ireland in 1864, so you won’t find a birth certificate for James c 1857. You might find his baptism but to do that you would need to know where he was baptised. There are 6 Presbyterian churches in Ballymena, but even if you found a James Green baptism, without some additional information such as father’s name, you couldn’t be sure it was the right one. So you need to check out that marriage.

Rach
09-04-13, 10:41
Elwyn

THANKYOU so much I had no idea how to move forward and your information is invaluable
I didn't think to look for a marriage in Scotland as I had checked Wales, England and Belfast but you may well be onto something

thanks again for your generous help
Rach

Rach
11-04-13, 13:11
Thanks Elwyn,
you have solved a mystery the marriage in Scotland was the right one!!!

James Nicholas age 22 (in 1879) parents Henry Green and Ann ?? (possibly StMichael)

I* have found a possible baptism but its Church of Ireland not Presbyterian so not sure
1856 Church Baptism
Ballyclug, Church of Ireland, Co.Antrim
James Green
Father: Henry Green
Mother: Jane ?

thanks again Rach

Elwyn
11-04-13, 19:55
The parents for the baptism you have found are probably Henry Green & Jane Lamont who married in Ballymena in 1852.

If you want to e-mail me the marriage cert you have, I’ll have a look at the mothers maiden name and see if I can work it out.

kelvin.callaghan
24-08-13, 19:59
Hi Elwyn
I've reached a blockage in my research into my family background. I have found my GGG Grandfather Hugh Callaghan in 1825 signing up for the British Army in a magistrates court in Scotland. The record states his place of birth as Lurgan Co. Armagh. From various data I have estimated his year of birth as 1809. Family legend has it that the Callaghan family came from Co. Clare, not sure about this especially when I found a village of Clare in Armagh.

Are you able to offer any help to with my research?
Many Thanks in advance.
Regards: Kelvin Callaghan

kelvin.callaghan
26-08-13, 08:31
Hi Elwyn
I've reached a brick wall in my family history research.
My GGG Grandfather, Hugh Callaghan, I have traced back to 1825 when, in a Scottish Magistrates Court, he signed up for the British Army. On the paperwork he states he was born in Lurgan Co. Armagh and I believe his year of birth was around 1809. Also family legend has the Callaghan family originating in Co. Clare but I am not sure as I have found a village called Clare in Co. Armagh, maybe the family legend is mistaken.

Is there any help or advice you can offer to enable me to progress my research?

Many thanks in advance.
Regards: Kelvin Callaghan

Elwyn
26-08-13, 14:27
Kelvin,

You don’t say what denomination your family were but I’ll guess RC. Lurgan is in Shankill parish. Unfortunately their RC records don’t start till 1822, so you are not going to be able to find Hugh’s parents from that source.

Unusually for an RC parish there are some burial records for the period 1825 – 1900 (held by Armagh Ancestry – pay to view). So you might be able to identify some Callaghans from that but in general I’d say you may struggle to get back any further that you have already got.

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse/counties/rcmaps/armaghrc.htm

If Hugh died in Scotland after 1855, his death certificate should have his parents names but you probably know that already.

It’s often very difficult to get back before 1800 with Irish research, especially if the family were RC and from a rural area like Lurgan.

Elwyn

Fern
21-09-13, 00:26
Hi Elwyn. I'd like to take you up on your very kind offer. My g/grandfather James Campbell, son of Andrew & MaryAnn , nee Grove, born 1849 in Ballyderlan, (Ballyederlan) Co.Donegal. I've been searching for some time looking for the area Ballyderlan, as written on James' marriage certificate but with no success. (He & his brother George emigrated to New Zealand in 1874. ) On his death certificate his place of residence was listed as Belfast. Campbell is a common name which makes the search that more difficult.
James & George were listed (immigration form) as agriculture labourers, so I'm thinking their father Andrew may have been a tenant farmer. Can find no record of him owning any land.
I've checked the census available, Griffiths valuations, Tithe Applotment books etc. with no luck.
I believe they were Presbyterians. I did email a couple of churches in the area hoping that their name/s may appear in marriage/birth/death records, but didn't receive a reply. I guess they get a lot of queries.
Any info that may give a hint of their lives or the area Balleyderlan, would be much appreciated.
Many thanks

Elwyn
22-09-13, 01:31
Fern,

Ballyederlan is a townland of 307 acres on the St John’s Peninsula in southern Donegal. You can find it using the Griffiths maps. Or if you can’t work them, let me know and I’ll talk you through it.


If George and James were agricultural labourers, then I think their father would also have been that. They’d have been farmers sons if their father was a farmer, and this is borne out by there being no Campbells in Griffiths for Ballyederlan in 1857. Most farmers would be listed. Many agricultural labourers properties were too poor to make it into Griffiths.

No Campbells in Ballyederlan in 1901, indicating they had moved on, as was quite common with agricultural labourers:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Donegal/Dunkinelly/Ballyederland/

I looked for marriage between Andrew Campbell and Mary Ann Grove in the statutory marriage records but did not find one. That would suggest their marriage was before 1st April 1845 when stat records started.

Ballyederlan is in the civil registration area of Donegal town. I searched for deaths of an Andrew Campbell there 1864 to 1901. Found just two. One died 1864 vol 2, page 29, est year of birth 1800; the other died 1866 Vol 12, page 29 est year of birth 1801. You might want to order those to see if either lived in Ballyederlan.

You can order a photocopy from GRO Roscommon for €4 per certificate. Put the place, year, volume & page number on the application form (anywhere). http://www.groireland.ie/ You have to post or fax the form to them but they will e-mail the copy certificate to you if you wish. Put “please e-mail to…..” clearly on the top of the form.

You are going to need to rely on church records for the births as they are pre stat registration (1864). Not quite sure which would be the nearest Presbyterian church to St Johns point. Donegal town? Which churches have you written to? (There are copies of most Presbyterian church records in Belfast and I may be able to check them out for you).


Elwyn

Fern
23-09-13, 02:48
Elwyn, many thanks. You have given me another perspective of looking at the info I have and I would have to agree, it all makes sense. I'll take a look at Griffiths maps. It was some time ago that I contacted a couple of Presbyterian churches, just where they were, I'm not sure now, but I'll see what I can find for those areas.
Thankyou, I feel that I'm one step closer to knowing about my gg/grandparents and their family.

LANDALES
11-10-13, 22:41
Hello everyone I have a problem in researching my Irish roots. My great grandmother Margaret Wray was married in Letterkenny, Donegal, Ireland on the 12th May 1908 to my great grandfather Robert Moore. She was born around 1886 I have only found the father's names of both of them. I am ideally trying to find her birth certificate but no luck. I don't even know how to find out how she came to be in Glasgow with her husband.
Yours Mrs Wendy Landale nee Guldberg

LANDALES
11-10-13, 23:01
Hello everyone I have a problem in researching my Irish roots. My great grandmother Margaret Wray was married in Letterkenny, Donegal, Ireland on the 12th May 1908 to my great grandfather Robert Moore. She was born around 1886 I have only found the father's names of both of them. I am ideally trying to find her birth certificate but no luck. I don't even know how to find out how she came to be in Glasgow with her husband.
Yours Mrs Wendy Landale nee Guldberg
P.S. This is where I got some information http://ifhf.rootsireland.ie/view_detail.php?recordid=923843&type=mcv&recordCentre=donegal&page=1

Elwyn
12-10-13, 08:50
I haven’t been able to follow the link you provided to see what advice you have already been given.



What’s Margaret’s father’s name?
What’s her townland (address) at the time of the marriage?
Which church did she marry at, including the denomination?
Have you found her in the 1901 census (I see 3 possibles but without her father’s name can’t narrow the search further).



The question about why they went to Glasgow is probably easy enough to answer. They will have gone there for work. Huge numbers of people from Donegal made that journey for that reason (and still do to this day). Donegal and the surrounding area has no natural resources, such as coal, oil, iron ore etc, and so the industrial revolution that created hundreds of thousands of new jobs in other places in the 1800s and early 1900s just passed it by. There was little employment but for subsistence farming. Scotland was full of coal etc and so spawned a huge industrial expansion eg ship building, railways etc, and all the support industries that were required for that. If you look at a typical census for the industrial areas around Glasgow in 1901 or 1911 you’ll find that probably 10% of the population were from Ireland. They had all moved for that same reason. (It’s a very easy journey from Donegal. At that time there was a regular Burns, Laird lines ferry overnight from Derry to Broomielaw Quay, in Glasgow).

LANDALES
12-10-13, 16:41
Thank you Elwyn.
The information I could from Roots Ireland find is:
Civil Marriage Record
Date of Marriage: 12/May/1908
Parish/District: LETTERKENNY
County: Co Donegal
Husband: Name: Robert Moore
H: Address: Corncammon Tauboyne
H: Denomination: Civil Record
H: Occupation: LABOURER
H: Age: 28
H: Status: Bachelor
H: Father: Alexander Moore
H: Father Occ: Labourer
WIFE: Name: Margaret A Wray
W: Address: Crieve Tauboyne
W: Denomination: Civil Record
W: Age: 22
W: Status: Spinster
W: Father: Joseph Wray
W: Father Occ: Army Pensioner
Witness 1: John Moore
Witness 2: Mary Wray
When I tried looking to 1910 in Ireland I couldn't see a census for that year which puzzled me.
Yours Mrs Wendy Landale nee Guldberg

Elwyn
13-10-13, 14:35
Here’s Margaret Wray with her parents in the 1901 census:


http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Donegal/Castleforward/Tullyannon_Glebe/1190606/

Tullyannan Glebe is on some minor roads about a mile south of Newtown Cunningham.

There was no census in 1910, but 1911.

This may be Margaret's sister Emily in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Donegal/Killea/Listicall_Upper/500747/

Possibly John b c1899 with his elder brother in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Donegal/Castleforward/Gortree/500428/

Joseph Wray senior evidently died between 1901 & 1911. Most likely death was registered in Londonderry on Jan – Mar 1909 Vol 2, page 132.Est year of birth 1839. (There was another death 1836 – Oct – Dec 1903 but I’d try the one with the closest age first.)

Likely birth for your Margaret, is Margaret Anne Wray regd in Londonderry Oct – Dec 1887, Vol 3, page 177.


You can order a photocopy from GRO Roscommon for €4 per certificate. Put the place, year, quarter (where there is one), volume & page number on the application form (anywhere). http://www.groireland.ie/ You have to post or fax the form to them but they will e-mail the copy certificate to you if you wish. Put “please e-mail to…..” clearly on the top of the form.

This is probably Robert Moore in the 1901 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Donegal/Castleforward/Corncamble/1190491/

(Rootsireland haven’t got the townland names quite right. There are often mistakes there. Transcription can be very difficult. Corncammon is Corncamble. )

Agricultural labourers usually just rented for a year at a time and quite often would move home to follow new work. So you get them moving around the area a lot.

If Joseph Wray was an army pensioner, you may get some military records for him on fmp, ancestry or from TNA in Kew.

Elwyn
13-10-13, 15:21
Doing a little more research, it looks as though Joseph Wray married Rebecca Kincaid. He’s in the records as Rae (a common alternative spelling of Wray). Rather unusually the marriage was registered twice. Letterkenny Jul – Sep 1882 Vol 2, page 129, and again Letterkenny Oct – Dec 1882 Vol 2, page 151. You would need to e-mail GRO Roscommon and ask them if they can explain that. (I can’t).

ukgal
20-11-13, 18:36
hello Elwyn

Could i please, take you up on your offer please!?
I am Looking for the parents to William Ireland Born abt 1836, Belfast(his exact D.O.B, would aslo be appreciated) died in 1883,Belfast......i have info that his father was William also, but have no information,on his mother!?

Thank you very much

Gina Marshall(nee Ireland)

Elwyn
21-11-13, 19:53
Gina,

Statutory registration of births in Ireland didn’t start till 1864 so you won’t find a birth certificate for William. Your only hope is that you might find his baptism (which may or may not record his date of birth. Not all church records have that information).

Ulster Historical Association has a William Ireland born 1832 to William Ireland in Cos Antrim or Down (which includes Belfast). You might want to check that out (pay to view).

http://www.ancestryireland.com/

Bear in mind that ages on marriage certs and deaths certs in the 1800s were often out by a few years, especially on death certs where the information is simply the informants best guess. So don’t rule out the 1832 event on the basis of age alone. Make sure that the denomination and any father's occupation and address reconcile with the information you have from the marriage certificate.

Elwyn

Karamazov
23-11-13, 01:29
You might want to check that out (pay to view).

http://www.ancestryireland.com/



Elwyn

Hi Elwyn,
Just on the off chance, I followed this link and found an 1862 County Down birth/baptism for a relative of mine. Am I right to assume this is a church record as it occurs before 1864 civil registration of births? Cheapskate that I am, before I shell out £4 to view it, could you tell me whether this is likely to be just a transcription or a copy of the original record?
Thanks,
Christine

Elwyn
24-11-13, 11:57
If it’s before 1.1.1864 then it has to be a church record. What you will get is a transcript, not the original. If you want to see the original then you either need to contact the church or view the microfilm copy that will probably be held in PRONI. (If you decide to buy it, let me know which church it was and I'll tell you whether PRONI has a copy of the original documentation.)

Karamazov
24-11-13, 16:59
Thanks Elwyn,
I thought it was too much to hope that it would be the original. It should be a record from the Wesleyan Chapel in Downpatrick where her father was the Wesleyan Methodist minister at the time. Yes, I'd be grateful if you tell me whether PRONI has these records.
Regards,
Christine

Elwyn
25-11-13, 06:55
Christine,

According to the PRONI website, they only have copies of baptisms for that church from 1829 – 42 (on microfilm MIC429/1/407). Later years, and marriages from 1863, are still in local custody. So you would need to contact the Minister for an 1862 record, or alternatively, it’s possible that the Methodist Historical Society in Belfast may have a copy. (I know from speaking to the curator that they have been in the process of gathering copies of all baptism and marriage records from their circuits in Ireland). Contact details:


http://www.edgehillcollege.org/about-edgehill/methodist-historical-society-in-ireland/

Karamazov
28-11-13, 10:30
Elwin,
Belated thanks for this info and the link - very useful.
Christine

Fambuff3
09-01-14, 13:16
Hello Elwyn
With reference to the information you have given another poster I’m hoping someone can shed light shed light on the Wray/Kincaid family-Ireland. My great grandparents were Joseph Wray b. abt. 1843 and Rebecca Kincaid b. abt. 1863 whom you mention, although a death certificate I applied for turned out not to be Joseph.. I’d found them in previous researching on the 1901 census but nothing on the couple after this although I have managed to gain quite a bit of information with regard to their children and in turn their families, although I’m always grateful for all information as I’m sure I’m missing lots especially as regards to their daughter Mary and daughter Fanny.

I have the marriage certificate of Joseph & Rebecca –they married on 11th July 1882 in Raymochy Parish Church, Donegal (Reg. District Letterkenny) At the 1911 census my grandpa William Rankin Wray (9) & his brother John (12) were in the care of their older brother Joseph Shelbourne Wray and his wife Martha Frances Wray and I take it from this, that as their other children were married or in service, that Joseph and Rebecca had either died or were perhaps in a poorhouse. I can’t find anything on them. Joseph’s father was Charles Wray (Ray) mother unknown.

I understand Rebecca was the daughter of a Shelbourne (various spellings and also seen as Shillone -incorrect) Kincaid (this name has been passed down to several Wray men, given as a middle or a Christian name) but although I have found a marriage between a Shelbourne Kincaid & Jane Moore which seems likely to be my relatives I can’t find a birth/death for Rebecca in any records.

I’m hoping someone has a wee bit of information (anything on Wray/Kincaid) that will give me the direction to follow. Although Joseph was an Infantry Army Pensioner I’m not having much success finding any information from military records.
Thank you
Fambuff3 (Maggie).

Elwyn
10-01-14, 10:48
Maggie,

Regarding whether Joseph and Rebecca were in the workhouse, you can have a look and see who was in Letterkenny workhouse in the 1911 census. Inmates were only under their initials, but by using sex, denomination, marital status and age you can narrow the search. There’s no female Church of Ireland RW there save for one who was single, so I think you can say Rebecca wasn’t there. There is a JW, who was married, Church of Ireland and a farmer. However his age is shown as 56 which is too young. (Though ages were not always that accurate on censuses). However because he was evidently an army pensioner, that would normally exclude him from the workhouse. He would have had an income (though perhaps not a great one) and normally that would mean he wasn’t destitute. He might have been in the hospital though that’s the only possibility, but in general I doubt they ended up in the workhouse. (If he were in the hospital, he would still appear in the workhouse admission records). 1911 census for Letterkenny workhouse:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Donegal/Letterkenny_Rural/Knocknamona/498211/

You could try checking to see whether either is listed in the admission records. In some cases the admission records have survived (most of the Northern Ireland are intact) but there looks to be significant gaps in the Letterkenny records. However you may wish you contact Letterkenny museum to find out:

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Letterkenny/

You could contact the Valuation Office in Dublin to establish when Joseph first took up the tenancy on the Tullyannon Glebe farm, and when he ceased to be the tenant. If he died, it sometimes says “reps of” against his name in the records, giving you a clue as to his death. Those records are not on-line and you would need to e-mail the Valuation Office. There may be a search fee to pay. You would need to check that with them.

You could also try the local Church of Ireland to see if they have Joseph & Rebecca’s burial records. (Church of Ireland is about the only denomination that does routinely keep burial records). Again, the vicar may charge a search fee. (€20 per hour).

I can’t see any military records for Joseph on the usual websites, but you might need to get a searcher in England to go to Kew to look there, as not all the relevant records are on-line.

Rebecca looks to have been born before the start of statutory birth registration (1864) so you won't get a birth certificate for her. You might get her baptism if you knew where she was baptised and the records have survived. I can't see a very likely death for her either. There's one in Stranorlar in 1916 aged 70 and another in Derry in 1917 aged 64, but neither seems likely to me, and she ought therefore to be in the 1911 census. Again the answer might be in the local COI burial records. Otherwise you might want to try the two deaths I have referred to but I wouldn't be very optimistic.

Kmurrin
15-01-14, 14:38
Hello Elwyn...Im a new member, attempting to find my Ireland ancestors... My great grandfather, we believe was from Killybegs Parsh, county donegal.. He arrived in the united states in 1866 according to one census. His name, Patrick Murrin. born June 22 1843 (however the year of birth varies from 1840, 1844, and 1843 on a work application we found here). He came from Ireland right to Rock Island, Illinois. We find several Murrin families here starting with the 1870 census. We feel that they must either be related or from the same area in ireland to heavily concentrate this area. This was a big Railroad starting spot by the Mississippi river. We also know he was infact a "railroad Man", in his early profession. We know from an obit when he passed in 1914 and this indicated he was survived by a "brother", no name, just brother, very frustrating. He married in 1867 the following year after he arrived to a Marria Ryan originally from Tipperary Ireland. I guess from this limited info maybe some type of baptism record might exist in a parish in that part of the country??? we have a very large portrait of him, looks to be in 30's, but for some reason i cant post it....

Karen Murrin

Elwyn
16-01-14, 08:08
Karen,

The variation in ages that you have encountered is pretty normal for that period. People didn’t celebrate their birthdays in Ireland and often had little accurate idea of how old they were.

Statutory birth registration in Ireland didn’t start till 1864 so you won’t find a birth certificate for Patrick. As you surmise, the next port of call is parish records. Unfortunately Killybegs RC records (I assume he was RC) don’t start till 1850 so there are no records for the 1840s or before. So you won’t find his baptism either.
The best you might hope for would be the baptisms of siblings born 1850 onwards.

You really need to know his parents names to distinguish his family from any other Murrins in the area. Is that information on his marriage or death certificate? I could also use that information to search for their deaths in Ireland, provided they died after 1864. An Irish death certificate should enable me to locate the family home.

If you want to look at them, the Killybegs RC parish records don’t appear to be on-line. There is however a copy in National Library in Dublin, and another in PRONI (the public record office in Belfast). LDS have also filmed them and you can order the film in to your local library.

I had a look at the 1901 Irish census, and there are 57 people named Murrin in the Killybegs area, totaling about 8 or 9 families. (Limit the search by putting Killybegs in the DED box).

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/

Railroads didn’t arrive in Donegal till 1893, so if Patrick arrived in the US with railroad building skills, he probably acquired them elsewhere in Ireland, or even in England. Or he learned on the job in the US.

There are some Killybegs gravestone transcriptions and other information this site:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/

Fambuff3
16-01-14, 14:37
Thank you again Elwyn for the above information. As suspected Joseph & Rebecca weren't in the workhouse (thank goodness) so I am in the process of having burial records checked. I agree I don't think the deaths for Rebecca will be much help as they don't seem likely, so I'll leave those be for now. I have been in touch with the valuation office thank you for the information you suggest.

Thanks again
Maggie

Kmurrin
23-01-14, 15:24
Karen,

The variation in ages that you have encountered is pretty normal for that period. People didn’t celebrate their birthdays in Ireland and often had little accurate idea of how old they were.

Statutory birth registration in Ireland didn’t start till 1864 so you won’t find a birth certificate for Patrick. As you surmise, the next port of call is parish records. Unfortunately Killybegs RC records (I assume he was RC) don’t start till 1850 so there are no records for the 1840s or before. So you won’t find his baptism either.
The best you might hope for would be the baptisms of siblings born 1850 onwards.

You really need to know his parents names to distinguish his family from any other Murrins in the area. Is that information on his marriage or death certificate? I could also use that information to search for their deaths in Ireland, provided they died after 1864. An Irish death certificate should enable me to locate the family home.

If you want to look at them, the Killybegs RC parish records don’t appear to be on-line. There is however a copy in National Library in Dublin, and another in PRONI (the public record office in Belfast). LDS have also filmed them and you can order the film in to your local library.

I had a look at the 1901 Irish census, and there are 57 people named Murrin in the Killybegs area, totaling about 8 or 9 families. (Limit the search by putting Killybegs in the DED box).

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/

Railroads didn’t arrive in Donegal till 1893, so if Patrick arrived in the US with railroad building skills, he probably acquired them elsewhere in Ireland, or even in England. Or he learned on the job in the US.

There are some Killybegs gravestone transcriptions and other information this site:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/

I will keep searching on my end, thank u......

shaz131
05-04-14, 20:52
Anyone needing help with research in Northern Ireland is welcome to contact me for help.

Elwyn Soutter
Co Antrim
Hi need help tracing the birth of william joseph omara D.O.B born 31 Mar 1924 Death registered Feb 1990 Reading and Wokingham. we believe was born in ireland but not sure what part,Any help with links to be able get a certificate, thanks .

Elwyn
06-04-14, 06:26
I searched the Irish civil indexes, and the Northern Ireland birth records on the GRONI site, for Wm Joseph O’Mara born in 1924. There none listed. There are no Williams at all. There are 2 Josephs, one in Dublin Jan – Mar, and the other in Limerick April – Jun. Of the two it’s the more likely because a birth on 31st March is probably going to be registered in the first few days of April, rather than the very day of the birth.

If you decide to order the Limerick one, the information you need is Limerick Apr – Jun 1924 Volume 5, page 288.

You can order a photocopy of the certificate from GRO Roscommon for €4. http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Apply-for-Certificates.aspx

You have to download and print off the form. Then either post or fax it back to them. You can’t e-mail it to them. However if you want them to e-mail the cert to back to you, they will do that, so tick the relevant box.

Put the reference details on the form (anywhere). Don’t worry about leaving some boxes blank. As long as GRO have the location, name(s), year, quarter (where there is one), volume and page number they should find it.

However I would advise you to try and find Wm’s father’s name from, for example, his marriage certificate, to ensure that you have the right birth. Also do you have reliable documentary evidence of his date of birth eg his passport? Could the date be wrong?

shaz131
06-04-14, 16:43
I searched the Irish civil indexes, and the Northern Ireland birth records on the GRONI site, for Wm Joseph O’Mara born in 1924. There none listed. There are no Williams at all. There are 2 Josephs, one in Dublin Jan – Mar, and the other in Limerick April – Jun. Of the two it’s the more likely because a birth on 31st March is probably going to be registered in the first few days of April, rather than the very day of the birth.

If you decide to order the Limerick one, the information you need is Limerick Apr – Jun 1924 Volume 5, page 288.

You can order a photocopy of the certificate from GRO Roscommon for €4. http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Apply-for-Certificates.aspx

You have to download and print off the form. Then either post or fax it back to them. You can’t e-mail it to them. However if you want them to e-mail the cert to back to you, they will do that, so tick the relevant box.

Put the reference details on the form (anywhere). Don’t worry about leaving some boxes blank. As long as GRO have the location, name(s), year, quarter (where there is one), volume and page number they should find it.

However I would advise you to try and find Wm’s father’s name from, for example, his marriage certificate, to ensure that you have the right birth. Also do you have reliable documentary evidence of his date of birth eg his passport? Could the date be wrong?
Has far has i know his date of birth matches for Wm Joseph O’Mara born in 1924 plus found his first and second wives marriage date which tie in with info. It wasnt def he was born in ireland but was a story that was passed down sadley there is no one has yet that can verufy this. Thank you for looking i appreciate it :)

ginacoco
19-04-14, 17:13
Anyone needing help with research in Northern Ireland is welcome to contact me for help.

Elwyn Soutter
Co Antrim

Hi there!

I am tracing a tree I belong to: http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/68759700/family?cfpid=30185653935

My common ancestor (per DNA testing) is likely Michael Manley/Munnelly or his wife, Bridgette Higgins. They went to Canada and then immigrated to the US. I am confident in all of their children except Mary and really need to find Michael and Bridgette's siblings. They could have stayed in Ireland or immigrated, I have no idea and immigration records seem to be hard to come by. Any recommendations/help would be greatly appreciated!!!

Elwyn
21-04-14, 20:24
It’s not easy researching families in Ireland at the early 1800s. Very few records exist. Do you have any information on where in Limerick Michael and Bridgette originated? Only a handful of parishes have baptisms records for that period, but if you knew where they came from it might be possible to check.

ginacoco
21-04-14, 23:03
Hi Elwyn,

I would very much like to take you up on your very kind offer.

I have three branches that I am interested in:

William John Dargan (Farmer) married Margaret Maguire sometime around 1833 possibly in Moira County Down Ireland.
They had at least 2 children Mary Dargan b abt 1833 in Moira and James Dargan b September 8, 1838 also in Moira. James Dargan joined the Marist Brotherhood.

The other branch is John Munnelly occupation Tailor father of John Munnelly b abt 1896 in County Mayo. The son John moved to Newcastle upon Tyne and married there on September 11, 1920.

Lastly, Hugh Callaghan (Farmer/Agriculturist) married Mary? sometime around 1828 and had the following children:
Michael Callaghan born Abt. 1828
Hugh Callaghan born Abt. 1829
Joseph Patrick Callaghan born Abt. 1833
Edward Callaghan born Abt. 1839
All of the sons moved to Newcastle upon Tyne before 1856 by which time their father Hugh Callaghan was dead.


Not a lot to go on but any help would be gratefully received.

Ian

I am looking for the Munnellys of Mayo too. Mine is Michael Munnelly (born around 1815, married to Bridgette Higgins, immigrated to Canada and then to the US). Any connection?

ginacoco
22-04-14, 01:26
It’s not easy researching families in Ireland at the early 1800s. Very few records exist. Do you have any information on where in Limerick Michael and Bridgette originated? Only a handful of parishes have baptisms records for that period, but if you knew where they came from it might be possible to check.

My understanding of the land is very limited at this point. I do know the family is from Mayo. Does that help narrow it down?

Elwyn
22-04-14, 16:17
Rootsireland has a marriage for a William John Durgan to a Margaret in 1830 in Co Down. (Pay to view) Might be the marriage you are looking for that couple. It doesn’t appear to be in the RC parish of Magheralinn (which includes Moira) so possibly the bride came from another parish.

It might pay you to search the Magheralinn baptism records for Mary Dargan as well as any other siblings. There’s a copy in PRONI in Belfast as well as the National Library in Dublin. Unusually for an RC parish, there are also burial records 1815 – 1890.

Death registration started in Ireland in 1864. I searched for Wm John Dargan’s death 1864 to 1901, regd in Lurgan but did not see one listed. Suspect therefore he may have died before 1864. Likewise did not find a death for Margaret.

I searched the 1901 census for Dargan households in the Moira area. There was only one, which I notice contained a young William John. I wonder if this might be connected to your family. They are listed in the townland in Griffiths in 1864 when the head of household was James Dargan.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Moira/Kilminioge/1243152/

This could be your Munnelly family in Church St, Crossmolina, Co. Mayo:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Crossmolina_North/Church_Street/1574084/

and in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Crossmolina_North/Crossmolina/701797/

I suspect John’s mother was Brigid M’Nulty and she married Apr – Jun 1889 (Ballina, Vol 4, page 11) but you would need to get a copy of the cert to check that.

I don’t think I can help locate the Callaghan family without more information. I assume you have looked for the marriage and baptisms on the rootsireland site? Not all parish records go back to the 1820s and so it can be very difficult.

ginacoco
23-04-14, 02:56
Elwyn,

Thank you for the information. I am guessing this is from my family, but not the direct line. It may be Michael's brother, though I don't have a list of his siblings yet (and I am not sure how to isolate which direct family he is from). Michael and Bridgette Manley/Munnelly went to Ontario Canada around 1840 and then to the US a few years later. Are there any older census records? With families like these, how does one isolate which "Michael" they have? Anything other than DOBs??? Is there a way to get all the Munnellys for Mayo and see if there are that many or if we can rule out much of them?

PhotoFamily
24-04-14, 06:24
Hi, Elwyn -
I need some help with geography!

I have the transcription of civil reg of a marriage in 1871 (from RootsIreland). County Donegal; Parish/District is listed as "Gleneely"; The bride's address is " Distern Glenely"

Can you help me find where this is? I've tried googling briefly...

Thanks!
Sarah

Elwyn
24-04-14, 07:42
Hi, Elwyn -
I need some help with geography!

I have the transcription of civil reg of a marriage in 1871 (from RootsIreland). County Donegal; Parish/District is listed as "Gleneely"; The bride's address is " Distern Glenely"

Can you help me find where this is? I've tried googling briefly...

Thanks!
Sarah

I suspect it’s Dristernan (508 acres). Here are the occupants in the 1901 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Donegal/Gleneely/Dristernan/

It’s in the civil parish of Culdaff, on the Inishowen peninsula, on the R238 about half way between Moville and Carndonagh. You can find it on Griffiths Valuation maps but you probably won’t find it on Google. It’s too small.


http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=placeSearch

Elwyn
24-04-14, 12:06
Elwyn,

Thank you for the information. I am guessing this is from my family, but not the direct line. It may be Michael's brother, though I don't have a list of his siblings yet (and I am not sure how to isolate which direct family he is from). Michael and Bridgette Manley/Munnelly went to Ontario Canada around 1840 and then to the US a few years later. Are there any older census records? With families like these, how does one isolate which "Michael" they have? Anything other than DOBs??? Is there a way to get all the Munnellys for Mayo and see if there are that many or if we can rule out much of them?

You may struggle to prove a link between the two families due to the early period you are looking at. There are so few records to refer to. There are no censuses for Mayo earlier than 1901 (They were destroyed). The Crossmolina RC parish records only start in 1831 and so you won’t find the baptism of someone born c 1815.

You can count how many Munnellys there were in Mayo in the 1901 census. That’s easy. There were 467 (the spelling varies a bit. You need to include Munnelley too).

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/

By the way you mention using dates of birth as means of eliminating people. A word of caution. People didn’t celebrate birthdays in Ireland in the 1800s and most people didn’t really know when they were born, so the dates tend to be a bit unreliable. (A documented RC baptism would normally be fairly reliable since it would be within a few days of the birth, but otherwise dates of birth volunteered by Irish people at that period tend to be fairly unreliable. Just a guess to please the authorities).

PhotoFamily
24-04-14, 14:12
I suspect it’s Dristernan (508 acres). Here are the occupants in the 1901 census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Donegal/Gleneely/Dristernan/

It’s in the civil parish of Culdaff, on the Inishowen peninsula, on the R238 about half way between Moville and Carndonagh. You can find it on Griffiths Valuation maps but you probably won’t find it on Google. It’s too small.


http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=placeSearch

Hi, Elwyn -
Nothing certain, but at least there are people with the right surname there. Where would the Church of Ireland's Church have been located for this parish? Do the parish records still exist? Have they been transcribed? More for my Christmas wish list!

Karamazov
24-04-14, 15:52
Hi Elwyn
Hope you can help with this general enquiry - I've found a newspaper report for someone in my tree in which he is referred to as a Peace Commissioner. This is in Ballyshannon, Co Donegal in 1930. What would this role have entailed? Would it have been a full time paid occupation?
Thanks,
Christine

Kmurrin
24-04-14, 20:36
Elwyn,

Ive written to you not too long ago reference my paternal side ( Patrick Murrin) from donegal county, however Im still attmepting to locate a parish or parent name to narrow down the search...His wife, however we learned,also from Ireland, was Marria Ryan. What we discovered about her family is that She was one of 9 children. We were albe to locate 2 other sibblings, both older than her,here in America..... a Catherine Ryan 18feb1836, edward ryan 24mar1844, and our Maria was born 17mar1847...We found a marriage license of one of the kids, indicates parents were Patrick Ryan & Catherine Glendon..Edward, the son, was born, Ballingarry, Tipperary Ireland...as indicated on his marriage license.....Thru the census here, we find Catherine and Edward arrive inthe USA both in 1854, we assume together...On Maria's census we see her arriving in 1865, all to davenport, Iowa....We dont know any of the other kids names at this time, or if they even came to America...We did find a book given to Patrick Murrin (Maria ryans husband) that was signed , "John Ryan",,,so this could be another Ryan child.......Trying to find any record of them in that location, is this a place in ireland you do research on....Karen Murrin................

Elwyn
25-04-14, 08:58
Hi, Elwyn -
Nothing certain, but at least there are people with the right surname there. Where would the Church of Ireland's Church have been located for this parish? Do the parish records still exist? Have they been transcribed? More for my Christmas wish list!

Not exactly sure where the church is. Presumably in the village of Culdaff. You might need to contact the diocesan office at St Columbs in Derry to confirm. Here’s what records survive. It looks as though the records for much of the 1800s were amongst those destroyed in the 1922 fire in Dublin. (Ironically they had been sent there for safe keeping).
The originals may still be with the church. Otherwise they could be in the RCB library in Dublin. PRONI (the public record office in Belfast) have a copy of the following:
Vestry minutes, 1693-1804; baptisms, 1668-c.1790, with gaps; marriages, 1713-21 and 1770-82; burials, 1714-18.
Baptisms, 1875-1987; marriages, 1845-1921; burials, 1876-1980; vestry minutes, 1858-73 and 1877-1988; register of vestrymen, 1870-1987; preachers’ books, 1879-1991; plan of church, c.1885; account book, 1897-98; notes about the history of the church, 1869- 87.
I don’t think the records are on-line anywhere so a visit to PRONI is your best bet if the dates cover the years you are interested in.

Elwyn
25-04-14, 09:03
Hi Elwyn
Hope you can help with this general enquiry - I've found a newspaper report for someone in my tree in which he is referred to as a Peace Commissioner. This is in Ballyshannon, Co Donegal in 1930. What would this role have entailed? Would it have been a full time paid occupation?
Thanks,
Christine

That’d be the Irish equivalent of what, in the UK, would be a Justice of the Peace (JP). Not sure about the Republic of Ireland but in the UK it’s unpaid, though they might get an honorarium (ie an annual token payment). It’s not full time work, and often just involves a few minutes work a week. Usually given to distinguished members of the community (with no criminal record). See:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/civil_law/peace_commissioners.html

Elwyn
25-04-14, 09:30
Elwyn,

Ive written to you not too long ago reference my paternal side ( Patrick Murrin) from donegal county, however Im still attmepting to locate a parish or parent name to narrow down the search...His wife, however we learned,also from Ireland, was Marria Ryan. What we discovered about her family is that She was one of 9 children. We were albe to locate 2 other sibblings, both older than her,here in America..... a Catherine Ryan 18feb1836, edward ryan 24mar1844, and our Maria was born 17mar1847...We found a marriage license of one of the kids, indicates parents were Patrick Ryan & Catherine Glendon..Edward, the son, was born, Ballingarry, Tipperary Ireland...as indicated on his marriage license.....Thru the census here, we find Catherine and Edward arrive inthe USA both in 1854, we assume together...On Maria's census we see her arriving in 1865, all to davenport, Iowa....We dont know any of the other kids names at this time, or if they even came to America...We did find a book given to Patrick Murrin (Maria ryans husband) that was signed , "John Ryan",,,so this could be another Ryan child.......Trying to find any record of them in that location, is this a place in ireland you do research on....Karen Murrin................

Karen,

I don’t do research in Tipperary, as it’s a bit far away from where I live (200 miles). However there’s a list of researchers on the National Library website. You might want to choose someone from that list:

http://www.nli.ie/en/services-commissioning-research.aspx

Ballingarry is a parish in Tipperary (South Riding). There are also 3 townlands and a village named Ballingarry within the parish, so be aware that Ballingarry as place of birth includes several options.

Griffiths Valuation for 1850 lists two Patrick Ryans in the parish. Either might be your family.

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch

The RC parish records of baptisms and marriages begin in 1814 (with a few gaps) so that looks promising. They don’t appear to be on-line anywhere. The originals will be held by the parish but there’s a copy in the National Library in Dublin. So looks like a trip there is called for, either by you or a researcher.

Karamazov
25-04-14, 13:37
That’d be the Irish equivalent of what, in the UK, would be a Justice of the Peace (JP). Not sure about the Republic of Ireland but in the UK it’s unpaid, though they might get an honorarium (ie an annual token payment). It’s not full time work, and often just involves a few minutes work a week. Usually given to distinguished members of the community (with no criminal record). See:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/civil_law/peace_commissioners.html

Elwyn,
Thank you for the information and the link.
Ironically, the newspaper report (irish Independent) was about him being committed for trial in Dublin for the murder (in Ballyshannon) of his pregnant wife!
The odd thing is that I have then never been able to find any newspaper follow up re the trial in Dublin (although this has been via internet search of the Irish Newspaper Archive.) I imagine he may well have pleaded guilty as it was pretty much an open and shut case, but even so, I would,have expected to find some further reference.
The family story is that he died in Mountjoy jail, but the trail stops cold for me with the inquest being opened and adjourned in Ballyshannon and the account of the committal proceedings.

I know your expertise is for Northern Ireland, but if you have any suggestions re next steps, I'd be grateful.
Thanks again.
Christine

PhotoFamily
25-04-14, 15:43
Thanks, Elwyn - more for my Christmas list!

Elwyn
25-04-14, 18:27
Elwyn,
Thank you for the information and the link.
Ironically, the newspaper report (irish Independent) was about him being committed for trial in Dublin for the murder (in Ballyshannon) of his pregnant wife!
The odd thing is that I have then never been able to find any newspaper follow up re the trial in Dublin (although this has been via internet search of the Irish Newspaper Archive.) I imagine he may well have pleaded guilty as it was pretty much an open and shut case, but even so, I would,have expected to find some further reference.
The family story is that he died in Mountjoy jail, but the trail stops cold for me with the inquest being opened and adjourned in Ballyshannon and the account of the committal proceedings.

I know your expertise is for Northern Ireland, but if you have any suggestions re next steps, I'd be grateful.
Thanks again.
Christine

If he died in Mountjoy prison then the death should be registered in the usual way. With his age you may be able identify it on the civil indexes site. I think Mountjoy will be in Dublin North regn district.

I am not sure whether court papers relating to a trial in 1930 would be closed or not. You could try contacting Mountjoy to see if they can assist with any details of his imprisonment, and place of burial. If not, they may be able to tell you where the relevant records are. (Probably National Archives, Dublin). You may need a Freedom of Information request to try and access such recent records.

Kmurrin
25-04-14, 22:14
Thank u for the information, i looked at the site that showed the resarch list, quite extensive.....Do i look for someone in that specific regioin, are they all pretty comprable,,,kinda lost....

Elwyn
26-04-14, 01:56
Thank u for the information, i looked at the site that showed the resarch list, quite extensive.....Do i look for someone in that specific regioin, are they all pretty comprable,,,kinda lost....
Someone based in Dublin is probably as good as anything since many of the records you may need are kept in Dublin. (For example, there’s copies of nearly all RC parish registers in the National Library there, which the researcher can look up without having to go to the actual parish).

I suggest you write out what you know and what you hope to find out. Then send that to 4 or 5 chosen at random and ask them what they will charge. Most will have an hourly rate and you can usually agree a ceiling, eg not to do more than €50 worth of research without agreement etc.

Do shop around as prices will vary. In the UK for professional researchers you can expect to pay £25 an hour or more, but others will charge less. I am sure that you will find similar price variations in Dublin.

Yvonne from Oz
28-04-14, 08:08
Hello Elwyn, just beginning to do my research on an Irish ancestor in more depth as my original goal was to find all the 'first ancestors' to arrive in Australia.

Having done that I am tentatively beginning to 'cross the sea'. Starting last year, we went to Scotland chasing an ancestor and I am hoping to come to Ireland next year - 2015

The surname is Mulholland and my first question is - is it an original Irish surname? John Mulholland was from Cooktown, Co Tyrone and the birth date is about 1820. (not expecting you to find him but just giving you a timeframe for the surname.) :)

Thank you.

Elwyn
29-04-14, 07:14
Hello Elwyn, just beginning to do my research on an Irish ancestor in more depth as my original goal was to find all the 'first ancestors' to arrive in Australia.

Having done that I am tentatively beginning to 'cross the sea'. Starting last year, we went to Scotland chasing an ancestor and I am hoping to come to Ireland next year - 2015

The surname is Mulholland and my first question is - is it an original Irish surname? John Mulholland was from Cooktown, Co Tyrone and the birth date is about 1820. (not expecting you to find him but just giving you a timeframe for the surname.) :)

Thank you.

It looks to be a name common to both Scotland and Ireland, though statistically more common to those of Irish ancestry. Taking the 1901 Irish census, there were 2579 people of that name listed. 1642 were RC (broadly implying Irish ancestry) but there were 325 Presbyterians (Scottish ancestry) and 427 Church of Ireland (who could be either Scottish or English). So take your pick. If you know your ancestors religious denomination, then you may get a clue from that.

Given that the majority were RC many must originate in Ireland but given the number of Presbyterians, it is clear that a significant number also settled in Ireland from Scotland (mostly in the 1600s). But there were also some RC settlers from Scotland too, so some of the RC population could also be of Scottish descent.

If you narrow the field of search to Tyrone, there were 130, of whom 64 were RC, 24 Presbyterian & 41 COI. (Plus others eg Baptists etc).

Karamazov
29-04-14, 09:38
If he died in Mountjoy prison then the death should be registered in the usual way. With his age you may be able identify it on the civil indexes site. I think Mountjoy will be in Dublin North regn district.

I am not sure whether court papers relating to a trial in 1930 would be closed or not. You could try contacting Mountjoy to see if they can assist with any details of his imprisonment, and place of burial. If not, they may be able to tell you where the relevant records are. (Probably National Archives, Dublin). You may need a Freedom of Information request to try and access such recent records.

Thanks for the advice Elwyn - will put it on my to do list to follow up when time permits!
Christine

Yvonne from Oz
30-04-14, 06:45
Thank you Elwyn - I did wonder about Scottish descent. I really would have loved a real Irish ancestor but on the assisted Immigrant Passenger List his religion is noted as Church of England - which was why I asked you the original question.

The main information I have regarding John Mulholland comes from the Assisted Immigrant Passenger List.

He came out to Australia on the Agnes Ewing arriving on the 18th Jan 1842. His age is given as 22 and His parents were noted as Henry and Elizabeth Mulholland - both alive when he left.

John was married to Elizabeth Rebecca Powell on the 29th June 1841 at Lisburn, Ireland. This information is not my own research but something I was given and am trying to verify. I would like to know what steps to take to find their marriage if possible?

John and Elizabeth had 13 children in Australia (last three apparently stillborn) and John died in 1865 leaving his wife with 10 children! She didn't die till 1897 so we know more about her side of the family.

Elwyn
30-04-14, 22:33
Thank you Elwyn - I did wonder about Scottish descent. I really would have loved a real Irish ancestor but on the assisted Immigrant Passenger List his religion is noted as Church of England - which was why I asked you the original question.

The main information I have regarding John Mulholland comes from the Assisted Immigrant Passenger List.

He came out to Australia on the Agnes Ewing arriving on the 18th Jan 1842. His age is given as 22 and His parents were noted as Henry and Elizabeth Mulholland - both alive when he left.

John was married to Elizabeth Rebecca Powell on the 29th June 1841 at Lisburn, Ireland. This information is not my own research but something I was given and am trying to verify. I would like to know what steps to take to find their marriage if possible?

John and Elizabeth had 13 children in Australia (last three apparently stillborn) and John died in 1865 leaving his wife with 10 children! She didn't die till 1897 so we know more about her side of the family.

Yvonne,

Just what a “real Irish ancestor” is, is something we could probably debate at length. (And it’s not John Wayne in the Quiet Man). People have been moving back and forth around the British Isles for the past five thousand years. It’s only 13 miles from Ireland to Scotland at the closest point. Consider just how much local migration there would have been, especially before proper roads, when boat was the easiest form of travel. Inside every Irishman, there’s often Welsh, English or Scottish ancestry at some point, and vice versa. English, Irish Scots & Welsh are nearly all of Brythonic origin with a smattering of outside influences eg Viking, Spaniard and Norman. A hotchpotch.

If John was Church of England on the passenger list, then he would have been Church of Ireland in Ireland. For the marriage, we also really need to know what Elizabeth’s denomination was. (Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church, so that might not necessarily be the Church of Ireland).

The answer to your question about where to find the marriage is that statutory marriage registration started in April 1845, so you won’t find a statutory marriage certificate. You need to check the church records, if they still exist. They are not all on-line, nor are they mostly indexed, and some have been lost. Many of the surviving records for the Lisburn area are kept in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast.

The Ulster Historical Foundation does have 3 John Mulholland marriages in 1841, in Cos Antrim & Down but none are to a woman named Powell. You might want to check them out all the same (pay to view). http://www.ancestryireland.com

I had a look at the church records today. Lisburn is in the parish of Blaris. There are quite a few churches in the area. The main ones in 1841 were Lisburn Church of Ireland, Broomhedge Church of Ireland plus the 1st Presbyterian church. All have been there for hundreds of years. I looked up Lisburn Church of Ireland (MIC583/9) but the marriage is not listed there. Likewise it’s not in Lisburn 1st Presbyterian church (MIC1P/159). Broomhedge’s records for 1841 are destroyed (in the 1922 fire in Dublin), so if that’s where they married, we won’t find it. Or the marriage might have taken in an adjacent parish near Lisburn.

I think you need to try and check the origins of the information, and the reliability of the marriage date (I only checked a few days either side, so if it’s out by a month or a year, I will have missed it).

Yvonne from Oz
03-05-14, 01:24
Elwyn, thank you so much, that information is so interesting. I will track back through my sources - hoping that I was good and recorded properly, but it was when I first started FH and was learning about computers and I was more excited than thorough!!

amck37
18-06-14, 13:14
Hello Elwyn

I am looking into some family history for my friend who lives in Belfast and whose parents were born there in1920 & 1921.

I've put this info into Ancestry with exact birth dates, death dates, their daughter's names and no hints come up at all - am I doing something wrong? The family is Protestant.
Do I need to limit the search to a specific index?

Any suggestions would be extremely welcome.

Thanks, Amanda :)

p.s. in my own research, I believe my family McKanna came from Monaghan. Someone told me this was on the border, is it considered North to you??

Elwyn
29-06-14, 15:17
Amanda,

Ancestry don’t have births, deaths and marriages in Northern Ireland after 31.12.1921. You can search for births to 1939 and deaths to 1964 in NI on the GRONI site. For later events you need to e-mail GRONI, and ask them to search for you. (additional fees apply):

Ancestry should have the births if they were in 1920 or 1921. Otherwise you need to e-mail GRONI and get them to search (or go into GRONI and search yourself).

Monaghan is in the Republic of Ireland, so it’s not in the north. (It is in the Province of Ulster though).

GRONI: https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk


Elwyn

Fambuff3
15-07-14, 23:02
Hello Elwyn,

Thank you for your previous help and posts above. Just an update, I have found my Gt granny Rebecca's Baptism via help from Raymochy Parishes Historical Society as well as a couple of siblings that I didn't have. However, I am still having problems finding Mary, daughter of Rebecca and Joseph , though Fanny married a McNab and went to Canada and I have managed to find her there. If you could perhaps help with Mary(b. 17.03.1892 Tullyannan, All Saints, Taughboyne) I'd be very grateful. She is the only one I can't seem to trace. I have an inkling that she could have been a domestic for a McNiece (Milliniece) family in the Londonderry area (from Census 1911) but I'm not able to confirm this. Any info/advice on this would help me enormously. Slowly but surely I'm chipping away at this and building a tree. Many thanks Maggie Wray

Elwyn
22-07-14, 08:12
Maggie,

Difficult to know what to suggest. I agree that the girl you found in Pump St in the 1911 census could well be your Mary. I looked for a marriage for her in Londonderry 1911 – 1921 but none is listed. I also searched for a death up to 1921. There’s just one in Jan – Mar 1918 for a Mary Ann Wray (est year of birth 1886).

Huge numbers of young women from Donegal and Derry went to Scotland to find better paid work. (Indeed they still do). She could easily have done that. Scotland is very close (with a regular ferry service to Glasgow from Derry until the 1960s) and so is always the first place to look when someone from that area of Ireland disappears. But she could have gone to England, or anywhere really. Without some leads, it’s difficult to know where to look.

I searched for marriages in Scotland and there is only one Mary Wray in the period 1911 – 1925. She married a Hugh Bellshaw in Gorbals, Glasgow in 1919. You would need to pay to view the certificate on Scotlandspeople to see what her father’s name was.

Fambuff3
08-08-14, 21:25
Thank you very much Elwyn. I suspect she may have come to Glasgow because her sisters did, one stayed there and one went to Canada. I'll check out that marriage you mention. I may come back to you shortly and ask about the Kincaids, as though I managed to find some information with help from the parish record for Shelburn Kincaid& Jane Moore children I'm about to embark on looking for Jane's birth/death and Shelburn's birth as well as marriages for their children. Will see what I can track down first though. Once again thank you for helping people who can't access the records in person. It's invaluable.
Regards
Maggie Wray

Karamazov
04-11-14, 15:09
Hello Elwyn,
I am visiting Belfast very shortly and would like to try and find the grave of my great grandmother, Clara Hoey, nee Dyer. She died 9 March 1894. (In case it's relevant she married in a Methodist ceremony, although I'm not sure if she herself was Methodist or CoI.) All I have to go on is the newspaper announcement saying: "Her remains will be removed for interment in Newtownbreda Burying-ground." From googling, I don't think this graveyard exists under this name anymore. I think it may well be the graveyard at Knockbreda Church but I can't 100% confirm this. If I'm wrong here, could you give me some further pointers re finding Newtownbreda Burying Ground? Thanks.

I have phoned Knockbreda Cemetery but unfortunately, their records only date from the early 1900s. They've told me earlier records are available at PRONI. Again could you give some pointers here - if I were to find the correct microfilm, what sort of information is likely to be contained there? Would it give the precise grave location/plot number?
Thanks for your help.
Regards,
Christine

Elwyn
05-11-14, 11:04
Christine,

The records can vary. In some cases it’s just a list of burials by name and date and in others it’s a complete record of who is in each grave, their last address, and the exact plot number. (You usually then need to contact the cemetery office to get the actual plan, to know where that plot is located). Leave this with me for a day or two and I’ll look at the PRONI records next time I am in there. (Probably next Tuesday). We can then hopefully work backwards from that to ensure you go to the correct graveyard.


It wouldn’t be unusual to find a Methodist buried in a Church of Ireland graveyard. She may have changed denomination to her husband’s after she married (as was the custom). But if not, few Methodists churches have their own graveyards, Methodism was an off-shoot of the Church of Ireland/England and Church of Ireland graveyards are open to all anyway, so for all those reasons it is common to find Methodists buried there.

Artsangelssheila
07-11-14, 15:07
Hi Elwyn,
I am researching my ggg grandmother, Sarah Darragh, who was born in Glenarm, County Antrim in about 1845. Her father's name was Hugh and her mother's name was Sarah. I have found record of the family in the 1851 census living on Toberwine and also in Griffiths. Sarah and her sister Mary immigrated to San Francisco, California. I have a copy of Mary's death certificate (Sarah's was lost in the 1906 earthquake). On the certificate the mothers maiden name is listed as McConnlan. I know this is incorrect. I sure it was spelled as it sounded. (Think Irish to American ears) I know that Sarah and Hugh were married in 1838. I have hit a wall with my research and can't seem to go back further without the correct maiden name. Any ideas? Thank you so much. Sheila

Elwyn
07-11-14, 19:54
Hi Elwyn,
I am researching my ggg grandmother, Sarah Darragh, who was born in Glenarm, County Antrim in about 1845. Her father's name was Hugh and her mother's name was Sarah. I have found record of the family in the 1851 census living on Toberwine and also in Griffiths. Sarah and her sister Mary immigrated to San Francisco, California. I have a copy of Mary's death certificate (Sarah's was lost in the 1906 earthquake). On the certificate the mothers maiden name is listed as McConnlan. I know this is incorrect. I sure it was spelled as it sounded. (Think Irish to American ears) I know that Sarah and Hugh were married in 1838. I have hit a wall with my research and can't seem to go back further without the correct maiden name. Any ideas? Thank you so much. Sheila

Sheila,

Layd RC marriages appear to start in 1837 which means your family should just scrape in. Have you checked those records for the 1838 marriage? (I assume you have noticed that Hugh was married previously. First marriage in 1832)?

Artsangelssheila
08-11-14, 03:55
Elwyn,
Thank you so much for the speedy reply! Your suggestion is much appreciated. I did notice that Hugh had been married previously. I am assuming the oldest daughter Margaret (away at Carnlough in the census) was from the first marriage. I have checked every online site available. Given your information, I think my next step must be a Family Search center and try to see if the church records are on microfiche. Thanks again. Sheila

Elwyn
08-11-14, 09:34
Elwyn,
Thank you so much for the speedy reply! Your suggestion is much appreciated. I did notice that Hugh had been married previously. I am assuming the oldest daughter Margaret (away at Carnlough in the census) was from the first marriage. I have checked every online site available. Given your information, I think my next step must be a Family Search center and try to see if the church records are on microfiche. Thanks again. Sheila

Sheila,

I don’t think the early records are on-line anywhere. UHF have 1860 onwards on their site but I don't know of any site that has material before that.

There’s a set of the earliest records on microfilm in PRONI in Belfast and another in the National Library in Dublin. In either case a personal visit is required to access them. (If you can’t get there yourself, you may need to hire a researcher). PRONI may also do a look-up for you but there will be a fee. (Normally around £16 per 15 minutes work).

See: http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse/counties/rcmaps/

Artsangelssheila
08-11-14, 15:09
Thank you. I'm live on the West Coast in Southern California. I am definitely going to visit Ireland in the next year or so. Most of my early ancestors immigrated to San Francisco. Unfortunately, most of the critical records were lost in the 1906 earthquake and subsequent fires. Again, many thanks. Sheila

Karamazov
10-11-14, 20:53
Christine,

The records can vary. In some cases it’s just a list of burials by name and date and in others it’s a complete record of who is in each grave, their last address, and the exact plot number. (You usually then need to contact the cemetery office to get the actual plan, to know where that plot is located). Leave this with me for a day or two and I’ll look at the PRONI records next time I am in there. (Probably next Tuesday). We can then hopefully work backwards from that to ensure you go to the correct graveyard.


It wouldn’t be unusual to find a Methodist buried in a Church of Ireland graveyard. She may have changed denomination to her husband’s after she married (as was the custom). But if not, few Methodists churches have their own graveyards, Methodism was an off-shoot of the Church of Ireland/England and Church of Ireland graveyards are open to all anyway, so for all those reasons it is common to find Methodists buried there.

Hello Elwyn,
I've just sent you a PM.
Regards,
Christine

Jeff_1951
23-11-14, 13:29
Hi Rach,
I'm a great-grandson of James and Jane (Nicholas) Green. Thier son, George Green (b. Mar. 24, 1895) was my dad's father. George and his brother James Green (bap. Apr. 22,1885) emigrated to the U.S. on the S.S. Haverford that departed Liverpool on Oct. 27, 1909 and arrived in Philadelphia on Nov. 8, 1909. I know little of their past, but I do have a photo of James and Jane Nicholas and also a photo of James and his second wife. James, Sr. came to to the U.S. to visit young George in 1910, who was staying with his aunt Jennie (Green) Westwood (James' sister) and her husband, William Westwood. This visit actually got recorded on the 1910 U.S. Census in Pleasantville, NJ. It shows James Green, age 52 as brother-in-law, widowed, born Ireland, both parents born in Ireland (all shown as English citizens). It also shows he was a carpenter and worked in a shipyard.
My grandfather, George, told me about this visit by his father, but didn't say that he came here for work. He did say that he returned to England shortly afterward and that was the last time he saw him. George and James wrote to each other a few times and his father remarried, but we don't know when or what her name was. We only have a photo of the two of them that James sent.

Jeff Green

Elwyn
24-11-14, 10:35
Jeff,

I think you may have posted this on the wrong thread. Your message to Rach doesn't appear to be related to anything on this one, and I suspect she won't see it. You probably need to re-post it on the right thread.

Nicky L
22-02-15, 21:24
Hi Elwyn

I don't have much information to go on. James Green coastguard was born in Larne in c1809 .
He was not a catholic. Had a daughter Ann J Green Belfast c1836 mother Ann Perkins born Porlock WeirSomerset He died in Poole 1893

His father was a boatman who often crossed to Porlock Weir from Larne


Thanks so much for any possible help

Nicky

Elwyn
23-02-15, 19:33
Nicky,

Statutory birth registration didn’t start in Ireland till 1864 and marriage registration started in 1845. So for both the births and the marriage you are looking for, you are dependent on church records. Not all church records for these years survive and of those that do, not all are on-line.

You say that James was not Catholic. The main denominations in Larne would be Presbyterian and Church of Ireland. Unfortunately neither of the two Presbyterian churches in the town has any baptism records for 1809. (Records have been lost). The Church of Ireland does however have baptisms records (they start in 1806). So you could check them. They are not on-line.

There are numerous churches in Belfast. Again many of their records are not on-line. However the largest Church of Ireland parish is Shankill, and their records are on-line. Rootsireland (a subscription site) has those records, and searching their index for Ann Green born c 1836 with father James gets two matches. However if I put in Ann Perkins as the mother, I don’t get a match. So maybe it’s not your Ann. But you might want to check. (You do get transcription errors on those pay to view sites, and sometimes that can be why you aren’t getting a match).

I also searched for the Green – Perkins marriage on that site, but without success. I assume Ann Perkins was C of E in which case you would expect them to have married in the Church of Ireland. No matches but it could be that they married in a church whose records are not on-line.

Copies of most surviving records, including those for Larne Church of Ireland, are kept in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast, but a personal visit is generally required to access them.

Though most Irish censuses pre 1901 have been destroyed, a few fragments survive. One of those fragments is the 1851 census for Larne. There weren’t many Green families listed but I see one with a John Green who married in 1812, who was an auctioneer, and a Jane Green who married in 1798. See:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie

I assume you have James careers details from this site:

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/Coastguards/F-G.html

So you probably need a trip to PRONI to search the church records (or I can do it for you if you want).

Nicky L
24-02-15, 23:51
Thank you Elwyn will reply tomorrow. I have typed a reply 3 times and just isn't posting!

Nicky L
25-02-15, 14:58
Sorry I should have said James and Ann married in Bude Cornwall in 1838. C of E


all the information I have about him as a coastguard is from the 1841 uk census onwards. I only know he was in Belfast becAuse Ann J's place of birth is always down as Belfast.
I do not know the area at all and do not know if there was more than one coastguard /preventive service station in Belfast.

I am sure that somewhere I have a copy of a letter written by my great uncle, James' grandson in the 1960's.
I think I will need to hunt for it.....It's sometime since I did any research and the first time I have tried to find out about the Irish connections.
There may be some for information I've forgotten about.
Seeing your offer has inspired me to start again.
Hopefully I will find some more i formation to go on.

Thanks Nicky
.

Elwyn
26-02-15, 09:25
OK I’ll wait to hear from you. As far as coastguard stations are concerned, Larne is about 20 miles from Belfast. I would expect there would have been separate staff for those two locations, and there would have been others stationed along the cost at various points.

PhotoFamily
06-03-15, 01:04
Elwyn - Do you know anything about the Fishmongers business in Londonderry - or more specifically, in Tamlaght Finlagan? I'm tracing some of my people there, and their occupation is Fisherman. I know that Fishmongers had property there (at TF), and I know there was some sort of property rental. Would they have been renting dock or storage space to fisherman, and their catch could have been taken all the way back to London?
Thanks
Sarah

Elwyn
07-03-15, 11:30
Sarah,

During the Plantation of Ulster (early 1600s)the King decided to use the London Livery companies to organise and develop the county. So, in return for building public buildings, roads, places of refuge, etc they got allocations of land (that had been seized from Irish landowners who had fled in 1606). The Fishmongers were amongst those livery companies, along with Drapers, Haberdashers and other trades. So what the Fishmongers did was put up the venture capital to develop the land. They didn't actually engage in any fishing at all. (At least not so far as I am aware). They then appear as landlords for your family because they owned all the land in that area, rather than because they owned port or fish processing facilities.

If your ancestor was a fisherman, I suspect he just worked for himself or with a couple of other local people, much as is still the custom today.

PhotoFamily
08-03-15, 02:57
Elwyn - That's very interesting and useful information. I didn't see any indication that they were Company members, but was curious about the possibility.

Oh my mother's side, she had Drapers come from Londonderry to the US in the mid-1700s. Interesting possibility there!

Thanks again for sharing your expertise :)
sarah

Karamazov
10-05-15, 12:40
Hi Elwyn,
This is a baptism record for my great-grandmother, Clara Dyer.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5SM-5D7

Do you know if the number 293 in

Christening Place:
293, BALLYMACARRETT, DOWN,


correlates to a specific church? Any pointers would be useful for next time I am over in PRONI to see if I can find further Dyer baptism, marriage and burial records for her siblings in the same place.
As always, thanks in advance for your help.

Christine

PS I can't account for the green face in the middle of the hyperlink but it doesn't seem to prevent the link working!

Elwyn
11-05-15, 07:52
Christine,

The number is allocated by LDS. You would probably need to order the film in from them to find out for certain which church it refers to but it’s evidently the parish of Ballymacarrett..

So in PRONI, I would try Ballymacarrett Church of Ireland MIC583/4; Knockbreda COI MIC 1/57, failing which 1st Ballymacarrett Presbyterian MIC1P/15 or Ballymacarrett RC MIC1D/65. (If you know the denomination you may not need to try them all).

Fambuff3
02-08-15, 16:43
Hello Elwyn

You helped me with some advice re Wray and once again I thank you for that. I knew many records had been destroyed during world wars/ domestic troubles and also that for various reasons a couple of censuses hadn't been taken after 1922 but I wasn't aware until recently just how extensively detstructive it has been going and that records going back to medieval times have been lost Just awful from a history point of view far less genealogically.

I had said I may come back to you to see if you could help me with the family of Shelburn Kincaid/Jane Moore. I wonder if you could please? I'm trying to find marriages or deaths for any of their children excluding my Gt. Granny Rebecca and her brother William. I think he came to Scotland (Glasgow) and married RoseAnne Bone in Glasgow and I've narrowed down Rebecca's from her sons' "Soldier Effects" entries. It may be that some of her siblings also settled in Glasgow but I haven't been able to track anyone else so I thought I'd try and find if they stayed in Ireland.

I'm looking for information on: Samuel Kincaid baptised 18.01.1856 in Ballyboedooish Townland (think he may have married a Mary McIlhenny)
Robert Kincaid " 11.11.1861 in Moneymore, Co. Londonderry
Jane Kincaid born 15.05.1865 in " " ( think she married John Keilty--not quite legible(Soldier Effects Records of
Charles Henry Wray MM and Pvt. John Wray though in the latter's records he is down as a brother in law to John and not his Uncle.)
John James Kincaid baptised Killea, Manorcunningham, Co. Donegal
Margaret Ann Kincaid c. 20.10.1873 baptised Killea etc.

Any information that could be found would be very much appreciated. Many thanks for your time once again.

Kind regards
Maggie Wray

Elwyn
03-08-15, 08:51
Maggie,

I have struggled a bit with some of this information. I can’t find anywhere called Ballyboedooish. Ballyboe is common enough (being a land measurement) but I can’t find anywhere with the dooish suffix. However I did find what might be a marriage for Samuel Kincaid to Mary McIlhenny, registered in Londonderry July – Sept 1883 Vol 2, page 191.

Couldn’t find anything on Robert Kincaid. There are quite a few possible marriages. You would need to order them all up to see if any is for your man.

I could not find a birth in the statutory records (which start in 1864) for Jane Kincaid in 1865 anywhere in what is now Northern Ireland. I looked for a marriage to a John Keilty or Kielty but did not see one.

You don’t give a year of birth for John James Kincaid but I can’t find anywhere in Donegal called Killea. (Manorcunningham does exist and is in the Letterkenny civil registration area).

I did not find a Margaret Ann Kincaid birth in the Letterkenny area in 1873 but there is one nearby in Londonderry (1873 Vol 17 page 232).

There are marriages 20 or so years later for people of those names, across Ireland, but I have no easy way of saying whether any might be yours.

You can order a photocopy of the marriage and birth certificates from GRO Roscommon for €4 (euros). http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Apply-for-Certificates.aspx

You have to download and print off the form. Then either post or fax it back to them. You can’t e-mail it to them. However if you want them to e-mail the cert to back to you, they will do that, so tick the relevant box.

Put the reference details on the form (anywhere). Don’t worry about leaving some boxes blank. As long as GRO have the location, name(s), year, quarter (where there is one), volume and page number they should find it.

Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church which should be on the marriage certificate, (unless it was a Registry Office marriage). That church may be the place to look for her baptism and that of any siblings.

I looked for these people in the 1901 census but did not see any obvious matches.

Fambuff3
05-08-15, 12:50
Hello Elwyn

Thank you very much. Through looking at Shelburn Kincaids' marriage/death certificate (I purchased them from GRO Roscommon a while back) I saw Manorcunningham as the Registration District for his death and after a wee bit research I wrote to Ramochy Parish Church, Manorcunningham. They passed my letter to the Raymochy ParishesHistorical Society and a very helpful man Mr. M. Meehan in turn spoke to a Mr. McKinley the Clerk of Sessions at Ray Prebyterian Church who checked his registers and gave me the information which I had been hoping I'd perhaps be able to expand on with your help.

Ballyboedooish it seems is in the Parish of Raymochy (given as place of residence on his marriage cert). Given your description of Ballyboe perhaps I should just be looking at Dooish as I know there is some Wray connections there but not seen anything for Kincaid. Having the meaning of words like this one helps me understand things a bit more so thank you very much for that.

I'll buy the Samuel Kincaid certificate and see what is on it that might/might not help.

Re: Robert Kincaid I had an inkling that this might be one where a bit further digging would be needed e.g. I'll try and find out if I can get a middle name to narrow the Robert down. It's now on my "to do" list.

Re: Jane Kincaid- I thought it'd be easy for me to find a marriage but I couldn't either. The information I have from LDS site is she was b. 15.05.1865. Killea, Donegal, Ireland. I think Killea is a Londonderry Registration District. 0241 preceded the birthplace details and I understand from your post to another member that this is an LDS no. Jane is named as a beneficiary on her nephews' "Soldier Effects" records as being Mrs Jane Kielty (guardian of nieces) and was awarded a sum "for the children of her deceased sister Rebecca" (my Gt. Granny). This was on 5th February 1918. so that narrows my Gt. Granny's death date down which I can look into further. I only came about these "Soldier Effect" records in the past week or so. John Kielty is mentioned in John Wray's "Soldier Effects" in February 1917. It does state though that he was JW's brother in law but actually as Jane is Rebecca's sister then he would have been his uncle in law. I'll keep digging there and see if I can come across anything else that might help.

Re: John James Kincaid he was born on 09.04.1968 again the LDS gives Killea as his birthplace and Raymochy Parish records show his baptism was "registered as being in the Maillen pronounced the Mail in. I think the Maillen is an Ulster Scot word for a district, I think it is near Drumbarnett". The part in " " is from the note I received from Mr. Meehan.

Re: Margaret Ann Kincaid- I'll order that certificate from the information you gave.

It seems that Jane & John James are going to be a bit more difficult than I thought. As you said the certificates help but it's a vicious circle if you can't narrow it down and could spend loads of money buying wrong certificates. Ah well nose to the grindstone again and if they don't turn up in Ireland I'll see what I can turn up in Glasgow. Reading the above it seems I have already got a fair bit of information but the snag is its not leading me very far.

All the best and once again thanks for all your help,
Maggie

Fambuff3
05-08-15, 12:51
Hi Elwyn

John James was born in 1868 not 1968....oops. thanks
Maggie

Elwyn
06-08-15, 13:46
Maggie,

You can see a list of all the standardized townland names on this site:

http://www.thecore.com/seanruad/

Many townlands used to have several names (and a few still do) but they were largely standardized around the time of Griffiths Valuation. Indeed his clerks may well have contributed to that task. But you still do get bits of a townland with a separate name. You would really need to ask someone in the Raymoghy area if the name means anything to them. You might find it does. (I have seen other name places in baptism records that don’t show on the seanruad list, and it’s obviously a local name that remained in local use, even though the townland was generally known by some other name).

Regarding the Jane Kincaid birth, you could order the LDS microfilm into your local LDS library. The film number is 101,106. (There is a small fee for that service). You could then find out from it where the event took place. The collection that it’s taken from (Births & Baptisms 1620 – 1881 is largely compiled from church records. So the baptism may have been in a different location to the birth).

There’s a Jane Kincaid birth registered in Londonderry 1865 Vol 7, page 241 that might be worth checking out. Get a copy from GRO Roscommon as its not on the GRONI site, probably because they separated the Donegal records from the Co Derry records after partition in 1922.

Shelburn Kincade’s marriage to Jane Moore was registered in Strabane in 1851 Vol 10, page 309. I assume you have it. (Like Londonderry, Strabane’s registration area also included part of Co Donegal).

Maillen is probably Maylin which is a townland in Raymoghy. Maylin and Drumbarnet (Lower, Middle & Upper) all fell within the Londonderry civil registration area, till 1922. Thereafter Letterkenny. They are all very close to each other.

Here’s Maylin in 1911: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Donegal/Newtown_Cunningham/Maylin/

Drumbarnett in 19111:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Donegal/Newtown_Cunningham/Drumbarnet_Lower/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Donegal/Newtown_Cunningham/Drumbarnet_Middle/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Donegal/Newtown_Cunningham/Drumbarnet_Upper/

Fambuff3
07-08-15, 12:02
Thank you Elwyn. Your reply helps a lot.

Having the Townland/Districts proper makes life so much easier and even if nothing is found it means that places can be taken off your search list so you're not going over and over the same ground in the same place without realising you're doing so.

I didn't know I could order the LDS microfilms to a library here so I have emailed LDS to see how I go about that and hopefully once I see them hopefully it will narrow things down further.

Your and your colleagues on this forum give us researchers of Irish ancestors invaluable help and insight and no doubt once I've got all this new information I'll be in touch to ask questions. Thank you for the links.

All the best
Maggie

santana
10-09-15, 23:41
Hello Elwyn,

I send you an email a few days ago, however, I think I sent it to the wrong place.
Regarding/My GMothers marriage: Lizzie (Eliza Jane) Evans, to Charles Smart.
Please advise if you did receive, if not, I shall resend.
Thank you.

Joan Bourgeois

Fern
11-09-15, 02:50
Hi Elwyn. I'd like to take you up on your very kind offer. My g/grandfather James Campbell, son of Andrew & MaryAnn , nee Grove, born 1849 in Ballyderlan, (Ballyederlan) Co.Donegal. I've been searching for some time looking for the area Ballyderlan, as written on James' marriage certificate but with no success. (He & his brother George emigrated to New Zealand in 1874. ) On his death certificate his place of residence was listed as Belfast. Campbell is a common name which makes the search that more difficult.
James & George were listed (immigration form) as agriculture labourers, so I'm thinking their father Andrew may have been a tenant farmer. Can find no record of him owning any land.
I've checked the census available, Griffiths valuations, Tithe Applotment books etc. with no luck.
I believe they were Presbyterians. I did email a couple of churches in the area hoping that their name/s may appear in marriage/birth/death records, but didn't receive a reply. I guess they get a lot of queries.
Any info that may give a hint of their lives or the area Balleyderlan, would be much appreciated.
Many thanks

An update, after getting the death record of son George, where the writing was far more legible, I found that their mother's surname was Love not Grove as originally thought. It also stated that George was born North Ireland.(probably Northern Ireland).
Not surprising then that I couldn't find any info. Just maybe I might get somewhere this time round.!

Elwyn
11-09-15, 08:29
Joan,

I didn't receive your message. Please re-send.

Elwyn

Elwyn
11-09-15, 09:17
An update, after getting the death record of son George, where the writing was far more legible, I found that their mother's surname was Love not Grove as originally thought. It also stated that George was born North Ireland.(probably Northern Ireland).
Not surprising then that I couldn't find any info. Just maybe I might get somewhere this time round.!

Fern,

There’s no record of a marriage between Andrew Campbell and Mary Ann Love in the stat records (which start on 1.4.1845) so as before, it looks as though the couple married before that. In which case you will need to rely on church records.

Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church. You’ll need to hope that Mary Ann wasn’t Church of Ireland as the records for Killaghtee (the parish that Ballyederlan is in) were all destroyed in the 1922 fire in Dublin. If it was a Presbyterian ceremony, then the 2 nearest churches appear to be Donegal 1st & Donegal 2nd. Donegal 1st has baptisms from 1824 onwards and marriages 1824 to 1843 and then April 1845 onwards. Donegal 2nd has no baptism records before 1865 and no marriage records earlier than April 1845. Both churches are about 15 miles from Ballyederlan which seems quite a trek but I don’t know of any closer.

So the only likely records to check appear to be the pre 1845 marriage records in Donegal 1st, plus their baptism records c 1849 for James (and for any siblings). Donegal 1st’s records are not on-line anywhere (so far as I am aware). However there is a copy in PRONI (the public record office) and I could look them up for you. I can also check with the Presbyterian Historical Society to find out whether there were any other Presbyterian churches closer to Ballyederlan at one time but which have since closed. If so, I’ll check those records, if they have survived. (There would be a small charge for searching the church records as I would need to go into Belfast to do it).

Regarding George being born in Northern Ireland, that could be completely correct. The family may have moved there. However information on death certificates often contains mistakes. It’s only as reliable as the informant’s knowledge which must obviously be 2nd hand. The family may have moved from Donegal to what is now Northern Ireland (it’s only been called that since 1922) but it’s also common for people to believe that Co Donegal, being in the province of Ulster, and in the north, is part of Northern Ireland. (It’s actually in the Republic of Ireland), and so it might be worth bearing that in mind. He may well have been born in the Ballyederlan area along with James but the informant on the death certificate may just have made a mistake in saying Northern Ireland as his place of birth.

Fern
12-09-15, 04:03
Thanks for your reply. I have 3 civil registration marriage entries @ General Registry,Dublin (Ireland civil Regn.)
1. Mary Ann Love,event 1849,Donegal Ireland, page no. 559
2. Mary Ann Love,event 1846,Donegal Ireland, " " 599
3. Mary Love, event 1848,Donegal Ireland, " " 562.
The records show that she was known as Mary Ann, and these events are in the time frame.

Elwyn
12-09-15, 15:42
Fern,

According to the Irish civil indexes, Mary Ann Love who married in 1849 married either Walter Stephenson or James Friel. The 1848 marriage was to either Robert Wynne, John Spence, Samuel Carson or William Walker. The 1846 marriage was to David Holland or Hulland.


None of those marriages is indexed as being to Andrew Campbell. Therefore, it seems to me, your marriage must have been before 1.4.1845.

Fern
13-09-15, 22:41
Many thanks for that info Elwyn, I really thought I had struck the bulls eye :( if you could search some records I would be very grateful, and of course I would reimburse you for any costs. I have contacted the Presbyterian Society and other Pres. Churches in and around Co. Donegal but none of them have replied, even though their website says they will do some research.
The info that I have for Andrew & Mary Ann Campbell nee Love, 2 of their sons, James born 1849 Ballyederlan, & George born 1856 North Ireland.
George & James emigrated from Gravesend London in 1874 on the ship "Dorette".

Elwyn
14-09-15, 09:59
Fern,

I’ll have a look at the church records tomorrow and see what I can find.

The Presbyterian Historical Society doesn’t do commissioned research. They have a library (with copies of all the church records, plus other relevant sources eg lives of their Ministers etc) but you have to go in person to use them. Their only staff is 1 part-time administrator and she doesn’t have the resources to undertake research.

As to churches not replying, that’s pretty common in Ireland. They do get a lot of genealogical enquiries and most aren’t resourced (or inclined) to do this type of work. One of the two Donegal town churches has closed anyway which means you were not likely to get a reply there anyway (assuming that was one of the ones you contacted). However they shouldn’t offer to do research if they are no longer able to do so. But that’s life.

Fern
15-09-15, 02:08
Thank you, Elwyn.

Elwyn
17-09-15, 22:26
Fern,

I have sent you a pm with some information.

kathleenjos
30-01-16, 21:19
Anyone needing help with research in Northern Ireland is welcome to contact me for help.

Elwyn Soutter
Co Antrim
Hello Elwyn,
I have been doing research on my parents' families from Ireland. My mother was born in Belfast in 1926 to Michael Smyth (1892 Co. Cavan and Frances Beirne, 1896 Boyle, Roscommon). I have found the 1901 Census for my grandmother's family. Her mother Ellen (Brown) was a widow by the time my grandmother, the youngest of 7, was 4 yrs old. In fact, I believe my grandmother's father, James Beirne, Constable w/RIC, died in December of 1896, 4 months after my grandmother was born. After that, I was able to find the 1911 Census which had my great uncle Vincent Beirne living in Belfast in a house with 3 other men, and I believe I saw the census that showed Ellen had also moved to Antrim with three of her daughters, but I did not print it out and somehow lost it and cannot seem to find it again. I did find the military records for my 2 great uncles who joined the Australian military for WWI. On both of their enlistment papers they have recorded their mother Ellen living in Belfast on Wellwood St. My Great Uncle John Beirne joined the Australian Army at the age of 29, after resigning from the Connaught Rangers. So, I guess right now I need help finding the documentation that shows my grandmother Ellen Beirne and her mother living in Belfast after 1901 (Although her two sons may have moved out). I'd also be interested in learning the path that my great Uncle John Michael Beirne took. Lastly, I cannot find the record of my grandparents marriage. I do know they met somehow and lived in Belfast where my mother was born and baptized -- at St. Malachy's. I also have the passenger list with my grandmother and mom coming to the US in 1928 that has their Belfast address on it. For what it's worth, my grandfather from Cavan, Michael Smyth, was also an ex-RIC when he came over to the U.S.
So, the James and Ellen Beirne family moved from Boyle, Roscommon to Belfast after James died, and after 1901, but I cannot find record of it.
Many thanks for whatever help you can give.

kathleenjos
30-01-16, 21:24
Oops, I meant to say : So, I guess right now I need help finding the documentation that shows my grandmother and Frances her mother Ellen Beirne living in Belfast after 1901

Elwyn
31-01-16, 09:12
Hello Elwyn,
I have been doing research on my parents' families from Ireland. My mother was born in Belfast in 1926 to Michael Smyth (1892 Co. Cavan and Frances Beirne, 1896 Boyle, Roscommon). I have found the 1901 Census for my grandmother's family. Her mother Ellen (Brown) was a widow by the time my grandmother, the youngest of 7, was 4 yrs old. In fact, I believe my grandmother's father, James Beirne, Constable w/RIC, died in December of 1896, 4 months after my grandmother was born. After that, I was able to find the 1911 Census which had my great uncle Vincent Beirne living in Belfast in a house with 3 other men, and I believe I saw the census that showed Ellen had also moved to Antrim with three of her daughters, but I did not print it out and somehow lost it and cannot seem to find it again. I did find the military records for my 2 great uncles who joined the Australian military for WWI. On both of their enlistment papers they have recorded their mother Ellen living in Belfast on Wellwood St. My Great Uncle John Beirne joined the Australian Army at the age of 29, after resigning from the Connaught Rangers. So, I guess right now I need help finding the documentation that shows my grandmother Ellen Beirne and her mother living in Belfast after 1901 (Although her two sons may have moved out). I'd also be interested in learning the path that my great Uncle John Michael Beirne took. Lastly, I cannot find the record of my grandparents marriage. I do know they met somehow and lived in Belfast where my mother was born and baptized -- at St. Malachy's. I also have the passenger list with my grandmother and mom coming to the US in 1928 that has their Belfast address on it. For what it's worth, my grandfather from Cavan, Michael Smyth, was also an ex-RIC when he came over to the U.S.
So, the James and Ellen Beirne family moved from Boyle, Roscommon to Belfast after James died, and after 1901, but I cannot find record of it.
Many thanks for whatever help you can give.

The marriage between Michael Smyth and Frances Beirne was registered in Belfast on 28.4.1925. You can view the original certificate on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2 (sterling) to a view a certificate.

If you are interested in the service records of James Beirne and Michael Smyth, you can purchase them from the police museum in Belfast. There’s a £25 fee per record. See:

http://www.psni.police.uk/index/about-us/police_museum/museum_genealogy.htm

Alternatively I can get copies from PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast for a bit less than the PSNI fee.

I assume this is Ellen Beirne in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Roscommon/Boyle_Urban/The_Green_or_Church_Street/1657202/


This looks to be her in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Cromac/Chambers_Street/158902/


Possible death for James Beirne regd Boyle Oct – Dec 1896 Volume 4, page 51.

1918 street directory for Wellwood St lists Agnes Bierne (sic) at no 6. See:
http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/wyzcomplete1918.htm
Was Ellen dead?

I had a look for John Beirne’s military records with the Connaught Rangers but failed to find it. You might need a specialist on military records to help you with that line of enquiry.

daisynook
15-03-16, 12:32
Hi Elwyn - I have been researching my McMullen family in Belfast for some time. They are Patrick b.1814 and wife Sarah Ann Walsh b.1806. I had them down with 4 children, William b.1839, Sarah Ann b.1833, John Bartholomew b. 1841 and Patrick b.1843. I have recently discovered another child Mary b.1836 and suspect there may be others undiscovered. I wonder if Mary and possible other children died early as I haven't come across her name before but can't find a definite death record for her. I'm also searching for Patrick's father who I believe was John Patrick McMullen b.1783 although I have no definite documentation for him and who his mother was. The family were baptised and married in St Patrick's RC church Belfast and I have them down in the diocese of Down & Connor. Any further information would be greatly appreciated.:)

Elwyn
19-03-16, 08:27
Statutory death registration didn’t start in Ireland till 1864 so any deaths before that will be difficult to trace. (The RC church did not routinely keep burial records either). Unless there’s a gravestone somewhere – which is fairly unlikely unless the family were comparatively well off - you are unlikely to find any record of the deaths or burials.

The RC baptism records are on-line on the NLI site and fmp and ancestry. I assume you have been through them.

St Patrick’s has the oldest set of RC records in Belfast. They start in 1798, so you won’t find any baptisms or other events before that. (St Mary’s was the first RC chapel in Belfast and opened in 1784 but they don’t have any records until 1867). There were very few RC people in Belfast in the late 1700s (one estimate I read said about 300). However the arrival of new industries started to create a lot of employment from around 1800 onwards. (Shipbuilding began in 1793 for example). Huge numbers of Catholics then moved to Belfast, mainly from the west of Ulster, looking for work.

So whilst there are no RC church records in Belfast to search for John Patrick McMullen c1783, I’d say there’s a strong likelihood he wasn’t born there anyway. You are really up against the 1800 wall at which most Irish research comes to a standstill for lack of records.

daisynook
20-03-16, 08:53
Thanks for trying Elwyn. Yes, I had already searched the NLI, FMP and Ancestry sites and spent hours trying to read the handwriting on St Parick's online records! It looks like I've hit the brick wall but thanks for the suggestions anyway.

louloudoc
16-04-16, 11:52
Hi Elwyn - thanks for the offer to help. I'm new to researching family trees and I've hit a brick wall already...I'm researching my partners family and I'm slightly embarrassed to say that I'm stuck on his dad!

I don't have much information as he never knew him but I do know that his name is/was Leslie Allan Norris and was born in Londonderry around 1947. He had 4 siblings, 2 of which were called Norah and Edward. He was part of the military which took him to London where he met my partners mum. I've tried searching for him and the siblings but can't find anything. Any help would be massively appreciated

Elwyn
27-04-16, 20:04
Louloudoc,

Records of births within the last 100 years in Northern Ireland are not on-line anywhere. (Data Protection based rules). To find a birth cert for someone born c 1947 you have some options:



Go in person to GRONI in Belfast (who keep the records), and search yourself,
Pay GRONI to search for you. (Contact them for the fees).
I can do that search for you. If so, send me a PM and we can discuss what you need.

shemac
22-08-16, 21:12
Hello Elwyn! Thanks so much for your kind offer! I have read the responses to the other threads and I do understand that finding an answer to my question might be difficult because of destruction of census records by fire, government, etc.

I am looking for more information on my great-great-great grandparents William Wallace (b. about 1798 in Dromara, recorded as Dromora which I don't think exists?) and Nancey Graham (b. about 1797 in Ballymena, d. 1881, Ballymena). They married in 1821, possibly in Ballymena.

The 1851 Census (County: Antrim, Barony: Kilconway, Townland: Magheraboy, Parish: Dunaghy) indicates 7 children: Margaret (b. 1827), Marey (b. 1829), Jane (b. 1831), my ancestor John (b. 1833), William (b. 1835), James (b. 1838), Elizabeth (b. 1842). However, long-time family sources (no proof) indicate 3 other children born before Margaret: Joseph, Sarah and Robert. This makes sense to me as the records I have indicate that there were 6 years before the birth of their first child, yet they seemed relatively consistent with births after those 6 years so possibly had other children within those 6 years. Very conceivable that they might not have been living with their parents on the night of the census, possibly married or? Where might I find any records of the births of Joseph, Sarah and Robert?

What I am really looking for, however, is the ancestors/families/siblings/other children of William and Nancey.....we have no information and can not trace the Wallaces or Grahams back farther than their birthdays.

Also, looking at the information contained in the census, I see that William is listed as a farmer but almost all of the children are listed as linen weavers and spool winders. This indicates to me that someone (possibly Nancey) brought these skills in to the family. Could Nancey have come from a Houston family that were weavers?

I am also looking for information on Margaret Houston (b.1831 Antrim) who married the above ancestor John Wallace, son of Nancey Graham and William Wallace.

Thanks so much for any information you can find for me....or any hints you can give me on how to proceed further. I am on ancestry.com and a couple of other sites but what else can I do? Of course, I would welcome a lovely visit to Ireland!

Thank you, Elwyn!

shemac
22-08-16, 21:14
Sorry, Elwyn, I meant "Could Nancey have come from a Graham family that were weavers?", not "Could Nancey have come from a Houston family that were weavers?" Thanks!

shell777
14-02-17, 06:47
Anyone needing help with research in Northern Ireland is welcome to contact me for help.

Elwyn Soutter
Co Antrim

I have been tracing my dads family tree I traced my great great grandparents William and Eliza Thomson nee McCann to their wedding 2rd August in 1855 in Armagh Ireland I have the births of all their children William, John, James, Joseph and Catherine and the marriages and deaths of some of them. But what I want to know is when William and Eliza (Elizabeth) where born and died their parents. I know from one of their son John Thomson marriage certificate William Thomson was deceased in 1882 and from the son John Thomson death certificate of 1906 it doesn't mention his mum as deceased so I guess she was still alive in 1906. I have searched and searched different websites with no success I cannot find nothing. The reason put Elizabeth as on some certificates she is Eliza but on others she is written as Elizabeth. Is there anyway you could help me please?

Thank you

Elwyn
17-02-17, 19:58
I have been tracing my dads family tree I traced my great great grandparents William and Eliza Thomson nee McCann to their wedding 2rd August in 1855 in Armagh Ireland I have the births of all their children William, John, James, Joseph and Catherine and the marriages and deaths of some of them. But what I want to know is when William and Eliza (Elizabeth) where born and died their parents. I know from one of their son John Thomson marriage certificate William Thomson was deceased in 1882 and from the son John Thomson death certificate of 1906 it doesn't mention his mum as deceased so I guess she was still alive in 1906. I have searched and searched different websites with no success I cannot find nothing. The reason put Elizabeth as on some certificates she is Eliza but on others she is written as Elizabeth. Is there anyway you could help me please?

Thank you

What parish did the marriage take place in, and what denomination? (I have had a look at the on-line civil & RC records and don’t see the marriage listed, which is why I ask).

What was William’s occupation as per the various certificates?

Did the information about the death of William by 1882 and Eliza still being alive come from Scottish certificates? (If it did, that’s quite good as they are generally accurate).

Elwyn
17-02-17, 23:30
Hello Elwyn! Thanks so much for your kind offer! I have read the responses to the other threads and I do understand that finding an answer to my question might be difficult because of destruction of census records by fire, government, etc.

I am looking for more information on my great-great-great grandparents William Wallace (b. about 1798 in Dromara, recorded as Dromora which I don't think exists?) and Nancey Graham (b. about 1797 in Ballymena, d. 1881, Ballymena). They married in 1821, possibly in Ballymena.

The 1851 Census (County: Antrim, Barony: Kilconway, Townland: Magheraboy, Parish: Dunaghy) indicates 7 children: Margaret (b. 1827), Marey (b. 1829), Jane (b. 1831), my ancestor John (b. 1833), William (b. 1835), James (b. 1838), Elizabeth (b. 1842). However, long-time family sources (no proof) indicate 3 other children born before Margaret: Joseph, Sarah and Robert. This makes sense to me as the records I have indicate that there were 6 years before the birth of their first child, yet they seemed relatively consistent with births after those 6 years so possibly had other children within those 6 years. Very conceivable that they might not have been living with their parents on the night of the census, possibly married or? Where might I find any records of the births of Joseph, Sarah and Robert?

What I am really looking for, however, is the ancestors/families/siblings/other children of William and Nancey.....we have no information and can not trace the Wallaces or Grahams back farther than their birthdays.

Also, looking at the information contained in the census, I see that William is listed as a farmer but almost all of the children are listed as linen weavers and spool winders. This indicates to me that someone (possibly Nancey) brought these skills in to the family. Could Nancey have come from a Houston family that were weavers?

I am also looking for information on Margaret Houston (b.1831 Antrim) who married the above ancestor John Wallace, son of Nancey Graham and William Wallace.

Thanks so much for any information you can find for me....or any hints you can give me on how to proceed further. I am on ancestry.com and a couple of other sites but what else can I do? Of course, I would welcome a lovely visit to Ireland!

Thank you, Elwyn!

Shemac,

Sorry I overlooked your enquiry in August and have only spotted now as a result of someone else’s enquiry.

Not sure about your Dromara/Dromora. There’s a place in Co Down called Dromara but your family evidently come from Co Antrim so not quite sure what the name of this townland could be. Possibly Drumramer as there were Wallace families there.

Regarding the year that William & Nancy married, I have access to a version of the census that says they married in 1821:

http://www.irishgenealogy.net/forum/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=453

Notice also that there was another Wallace household next door. So likely to be a relation. Going by the 1901 census for the townland they were Presbyterian. So they probably attended church in either Clough, Cloughwater or Newtown Crommelin.

There are number of Wallaces from Magheraboy buried in Clough graveyard. No sign of William or Nancy but there are others. (I can let you have details if interested).

Unfortunately Clough Presbyterian church has no records before1865. (Earlier records were lost in a fire). Cloughwater Presbyterian has no records before 1852 and Newtowncrommelin only has records from 1835. So none of these sets of records is going to record either the couples marriage or the baptisms of any children in the early 1820. You will struggle to get any further back with your research because so few records exist.

There looks to have been Wallaces farming in Magheraboy in the 1950s. Have you been in touch with them?

Regarding acquiring weaving skills, everyone in Co Antrim wove. It wouldn’t have been a skill specially imported, it was as normal as milking a cow. Everyone could do it. It brought in a bit of extra money, and provided employment in the winter months when the farm was quiet. Most farms grew some flax (the raw ingredient of linen) and then the families would process it, and turn it into cloth. Retting, spinning and then weaving. The cloth would then have been sold at Ballymena market.

The marriage between John Wallace and Margareta Houston was registered in Ballymena on 31.10.1851. You can view the original certificate on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate.

LANDALES
18-02-17, 02:14
I have been tracing my dads family tree I traced my great great grandparents William and Eliza Thomson nee McCann to their wedding 2rd August in 1855 in Armagh Ireland I have the births of all their children William, John, James, Joseph and Catherine and the marriages and deaths of some of them. But what I want to know is when William and Eliza (Elizabeth) where born and died their parents. I know from one of their son John Thomson marriage certificate William Thomson was deceased in 1882 and from the son John Thomson death certificate of 1906 it doesn't mention his mum as deceased so I guess she was still alive in 1906. I have searched and searched different websites with no success I cannot find nothing. The reason put Elizabeth as on some certificates she is Eliza but on others she is written as Elizabeth. Is there anyway you could help me please?

Thank you

Hi Shell
Where did you get the marriage date for William and Eliza?
Thanks from Wendy

shell777
18-02-17, 16:25
I have their marriage certificate county Armagh, Parish/ District Seagoe. Williams address was Derrymacash and Eliza was Ballynery, Their denomination Roman Catholics.. Williams occupation was a Blacksmith. Yes the information about the death of William by 1882 and Eliza still being alive did come from Scottish certificates.

shell777
18-02-17, 16:29
The was county Armagh, Parish/ District Seagoe. Williams address was Derrymacash and Eliza was Ballynery, Their denomination Roman Catholics.. Williams occupation was a Blacksmith. Yes the information I have about the death of William by 1882 and Eliza still being alive did come from Scottish certificates.

shell777
18-02-17, 16:31
Think I have done this wrong I have posted up a reply to your questions but I thought it would be posted above your questions.

Elwyn
18-02-17, 19:44
The was county Armagh, Parish/ District Seagoe. Williams address was Derrymacash and Eliza was Ballynery, Their denomination Roman Catholics.. Williams occupation was a Blacksmith. Yes the information I have about the death of William by 1882 and Eliza still being alive did come from Scottish certificates.

Griffiths Valuation for 1864 lists what I think should be your William Thompson in Derrymacash. He appears to have had a house, forge, and 3 acres of land on plot 42. Looking at the revaluation records he left that property in 1867 when a John Bullick took over. That might mean he had died by that time.

A death in Ballymacash would be registered in Lurgan. I searched Lurgan deaths 1864 – 1868. I found 3 William Thompsons in that period who were of an age to be your man. 11.9.1865, aged 56, 3.4.1868 aged 70 and 17.7.1868 aged 43. I’d go for the 43 year old, given the couple only married in 1855, but you never know. It might have been a second marriage and he could be older than you expected.

If those 3 are not the right person, I would scroll forward up to 1882 looking for other likely deaths. You can view the original certificates on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate.

I looked to see if William of Derrymacash left a will but he didn’t. Or at least not one that required probate.

I looked for an Eliza(beth) Thom(p)son in Ireland in the 1901 census who was RC, a widow and born in Co Armagh. I did not find one. Could she have moved to Scotland to be with family there? Have you searched the 1901 Scottish census?

shell777
19-02-17, 13:02
Thank you for your help I will look on that website buy some credits. I have searched Scottish census as has my dad but we couldn't find her. Searched deaths too. Never occurred to me until you mentioned it that it could be his 2rd marriage. I will keep looking for them..

shell777
19-02-17, 13:05
I found it on roots Ireland along with their 5 children's certificate.. I know what happened to 2 of their children. but haven't found nothing on their other 3 in either Ireland or Scotland. Its just the wondering more about William and Eliza in where did they go etc..

LANDALES
20-02-17, 03:15
I have their marriage certificate county Armagh, Parish/ District Seagoe. Williams address was Derrymacash and Eliza was Ballynery, Their denomination Roman Catholics.. Williams occupation was a Blacksmith. Yes the information about the death of William by 1882 and Eliza still being alive did come from Scottish certificates.

Hi Shell
On the marriage details what we're the fathers names?
What details don't you have for 3 kids? If I had the details you had I could search more closely.
Would you email me?
Landales@hotmail.com
Just trying to be of help via the Scottish side
Yours sincerely
Wendy

LANDALES
20-02-17, 13:26
I really hoped the fathers' names would be there



Griffiths Valuation for 1864 lists what I think should be your William Thompson in Derrymacash. He appears to have had a house, forge, and 3 acres of land on plot 42. Looking at the revaluation records he left that property in 1867 when a John Bullick took over. That might mean he had died by that time.

A death in Ballymacash would be registered in Lurgan. I searched Lurgan deaths 1864 – 1868. I found 3 William Thompsons in that period who were of an age to be your man. 11.9.1865, aged 56, 3.4.1868 aged 70 and 17.7.1868 aged 43. I’d go for the 43 year old, given the couple only married in 1855, but you never know. It might have been a second marriage and he could be older than you expected.

If those 3 are not the right person, I would scroll forward up to 1882 looking for other likely deaths. You can view the original certificates on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate.

I looked to see if William of Derrymacash left a will but he didn’t. Or at least not one that required probate.

I looked for an Eliza(beth) Thom(p)son in Ireland in the 1901 census who was RC, a widow and born in Co Armagh. I did not find one. Could she have moved to Scotland to be with family there? Have you searched the 1901 Scottish census?

LANDALES
20-02-17, 13:41
918353
Hi I think this could be Elisa as in the marriage details Witness 1 called John McCann (I assume brother of Elisa) lived at Aughacommon and the residence at death of this Elisa is Aughacommon

LANDALES
20-02-17, 13:49
I think I may be wrong about John McCann being Elisa's brother as this birth certificate shows J McCann as father
18354

LANDALES
20-02-17, 21:46
I think this may have been Elisa and William's first child 3 years before their marriage. They probably couldn't afford a marriage but at least afforded to register their child
18370

patriciamarie
19-03-17, 18:08
I have found my gggf richard rodgers was born in 1786 and died 1879..listing was in antrim, down district lurgan. I know the family lived in lurganconcary
had lease from Kilmorey Estates. I am trying to find out who Richard married, and his children. The lease went to an Alice Rodgers who I can find nothing
on (and it is not a regular family name) and from her to my ggf also Richard Rodgers born 1839 died 1911.

Any help would be very appreciated.


email removed

Elwyn
20-03-17, 09:23
Pat,

I have sent you an e-mail.

Sue1
30-04-17, 12:32
Hi Elwyn, I did in fact make you a guest on my Tree before hols and you continue to be on as a guest.
Let me know if you cannot get in still - the Tree you want is the "Cassidy, McGeough etc Tree. I am not sure what has gone wrong. If you still cannot get in let me know and I will send you a pm with an alternative way in. Sue

Karamazov
21-09-17, 00:39
Hi Elwyn,
I will be visiting Belfast next week and intend to spend as much time as possible on Tuesday and Wednesday in PRONI.
If possible, I would very much like to find further info about the parents and siblings of my 2g grandfather, William Hoey, who was a Wesleyan Methodist minister from 1831 until his death in 1873.
These are the only clues I have re his pre-ministry life, from the official obituary which was printed in the (Wesleyan Methodist) Minutes of Conference in 1873:
"William Hoey 1st was born of godly parents near Brookeborough on 4 March 1808. He was the youngest of six sons, who were early left to the care of their widowed mother, and by her trained in the fear of God, and in attendance on Methodist ordinances."
From a quick online search of the PRONI catalogue it appears that Methodist baptisms in Brookborough are only available from 1815, which unfortunately post dates the birth of all 6 sons.

All William Hoey's sons followed Irish naming conventions and named their first son William, so on that basis it's possible that William's father was called John, as he named his first son John Foster Hoey. (I think the Foster middle name derives from the aunt mentioned in connection with his second marriage below so doesn't offer any further clues on the Hoey ancestor front.)

So I wonder if you might have any suggestions re other possible avenues to explore that might help me find details of his parents and siblings or of his first wife as mentioned below, or even of the mysterious Mrs Foster of Armagh.)

William married twice, both times whilst he was stationed in Dungannon. I only have this info from newspaper announcements extracted from various newspapers as both marriages pre-date civil registration.

Various publication dates in March 1841
On the 1st inst., by the Rev. Mr. Armstrong, the REV. MR. HOWIE, Wesleyan Minister, Dungannon, to MISS ELIZA RICHARDSON, of Aughereny, near Dungannon

Various publication dates in July 1842
On the 20th ult., by the Rev. Edward Johnson, Wesleyan Minister, Dungannon, the REV. WILLIAM HOEY, Wesleyan Minister, of same Place, to MISS BARNETT, daughter of the late MOSES BARNETT, ESQ., Strangford, and niece to MRS. FOSTER, Armagh

(Re the variant spelling in the first marriage announcement - I have checked with the Methodist archivist at Lennoxvale who confirms that this must refer to my William Hoey.)

So it looks like Eliza Richardson Hoey died between March 1841 and June 1842 at the latest, presumably in Dungannon. I am not aware of any child of this 1st marriage. William and Jane went on to have 10 children that I know of.

Any suggestions/pointers gratefully received...or is this a hopeless quest?
Thanks,
Christine

Karamazov
21-09-17, 00:56
Postscript to the above: not sure to what extent William may have followed Irish naming conventions but for what it's worth, the names of his 6 sons might give clues as to the names of William's father and brothers:
John Foster Hoey
James Edward Hoey
William Henry Hoey
Moses Barnett Hoey (named after his maternal grandfather)
Thomas Guard Hoey (I think Guard is after a fellow Methodist minister)
Richard Alexander Hoey

Elwyn
22-09-17, 09:39
Karamazov,

If going to PRONI for the first time, take your passport or driving licence, to get your reader’s ticket (Takes 3 minutes).

The Methodist records for Brookborough don’t start till 1841. It’s the Church of Ireland records that start in 1815.

Methodism took a lot longer to become established in Ireland as a separate denomination than in England. In Ireland there was considerable resistance to separating from the Church of Ireland. It was 1816 before Methodists agreed to conduct their own baptisms. However because of continuing loyalty and other factors, many continued to use the Church of Ireland for sacraments for many years after this date and it was 1871 before all Methodists routinely performed their own baptisms.

For marriages, the earliest ceremonies conducted by a Methodist Minister in Ireland that I am aware of, date from 1835 (Belfast Donegall Square, the first Methodist church in Ireland). However in the mid 1800s there were only a few Methodist Ministers in Ireland (Methodism relied heavily on lay preachers). So the shortage of Ministers contributed to the continuing practice of marrying in the Church of Ireland.

So to summarise, you are unlikely to find any Methodist baptisms much before 1830. Few marriages before the 1840s and only a handful for many years after that. If there are no Methodist records in the location you are interested in, I would search the Church of Ireland instead, as that’s the most likely place to find the relevant event. In this particular case it doesn’t appear that there will be a baptism record for William in 1808 because the Aghavea Church of Ireland records don’t go back far enough. The burials start in 1815 so you might find his parents burials there.

Not many Methodist Meeting Houses have graveyards and so they may be buried in public or Church of Ireland graveyards (which are open to all denominations).

Aughereny, near Dungannon is probably Aghareany. That’s in the parish of Donaghmore. There are several Richardson households there in Griffiths in 1860.

Dungannon Methodist church has baptisms from 1819 onwards but doesn’t have any marriages prior to 1865, so the inference I would draw from that is that they were still using the Church of Ireland for marriages. So I would check Donaghmore for the 1st marriage and Drumglass for the second.

Two Church of Ireland churches in Donaghmore. Donaghmore has records from the 1740s. Donaghmore Upper’s early records were lost in the 1922 fire. Let’s hope your marriage was in the main church. Drumglass has marriage records from 1809 – 1845 so they seem complete.

Eliza Hoey’s death is long before the start of statutory death registration (1864) so you won’t find a death certificate for her. Methodists generally don’t keep burial records, so probably no record there either. The Church of Ireland does keep burial records but generally only for their own congregation. So unless there is a gravestone or a mention in the newspapers, there may be no record of Eliza’s death.

There’s a Mrs Grace Foster, Dobbin St, Armagh in Slater’s Directory 1846. That might be your Mrs Foster:

http://www.failteromhat.com/slater/0130.pdf

Probably a widow, but can’t be certain about that.

Karamazov
22-09-17, 10:58
Hi Elwyn,
Thanks for the detailed reply. I've been to PRONI before and still have my reader card - in fact we met there a few years ago when you gave me a brief intro to using the catalogue etc.
Yes, I was going to look at the COI records for Aghavea as that seems the most likely "near Brookeborough" church but thanks for the info about the COI Parishes for Dungannon.
Thanks for the info re Mrs Foster - Jane Barnett (William's wife) had a sister Grace and it then repeats through the generations. I'll now try to work out if she was a maternal or paternal aunt, so something more to go at.

Regards,
Christine

Fambuff3
02-11-17, 13:32
Hi Elwyn

I'm looking for information on Anne Moore & William McMonagle. I believe they married on 4th April 1848. Anne was a sister of my Gt.Gt. Granny Jane Moore who married Shelburn Kincaid on 22nd Feb 1851 @ Strabane Register Office. Jane & Anne's dad was called William.

Also looking for information on Mary Kincaid married to David Weir. Her father was Shelburn Kincaid but not sure if this is correct as I can find no birth for her in Jane Moore/Shelburn Kincaid's family, therefore not sure how she fits in; however the place of marriage fits, Manorcunningham, Raymochy Parish in Co.
Donegal

Also still looking on any information on Mary Wray b. 17.03.1892 in Tullyannan. Think she was a domestic to the McNieces's but lost track after that. She could have married.

Thank you.
Maggie

Elwyn
06-11-17, 13:58
Hi Elwyn

I'm looking for information on Anne Moore & William McMonagle. I believe they married on 4th April 1848. Anne was a sister of my Gt.Gt. Granny Jane Moore who married Shelburn Kincaid on 22nd Feb 1851 @ Strabane Register Office. Jane & Anne's dad was called William.

Also looking for information on Mary Kincaid married to David Weir. Her father was Shelburn Kincaid but not sure if this is correct as I can find no birth for her in Jane Moore/Shelburn Kincaid's family, therefore not sure how she fits in; however the place of marriage fits, Manorcunningham, Raymochy Parish in Co.
Donegal

Also still looking on any information on Mary Wray b. 17.03.1892 in Tullyannan. Think she was a domestic to the McNieces's but lost track after that. She could have married.

Thank you.
Maggie


I looked for the Moore – McMonagle marriage on 4.4.1848. Can’t see it in the civil records. Could it have been an RC ceremony in Raymoghy? If so, it should be in the on-line records but I don’t see it. There was only 1 RC marriage in Raymoghy in April 1848 so no great likelihood of missing it:

https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000631911#page/91/mode/1up

What’s the source for the marriage date?

You say you can’t find a Mary Kincade, whose father was Shelburn. That’s such a rare name that I’d be inclined to think it is the same family, and if Mary was marrying in 1876 her age would allow her to be the daughter of the 1851 marriage. Her birth was obviously before the start of statutory birth registration, so you are relying on baptism records. What was Shelburn’s occupation and denomination? Could he have moved around a little and she be baptised in a different parish, or one whose records for the 1850s are lost? The odd baptism did get missed from parish records. That’s another possible explanation.

What was William Moore’s occupation and where did he live? What was Jane’s townland on her marriage certificate? That’d be the starting point for searching for her family? What denomination was she? (I note it was a Registry Office marriage. That often points to a mixed marriage).

I had a quick look for Mary Wray/Ray but can’t see her for certain after 1911 in Derry. There’s a marriage in Derry on 23.4.1926 between Mary Wray and John McFeeters. You might want to pay to see it on the GRONI site, to see if that’s her.

I assume this is part of your family in 1911. Joseph Shillone Wray is a mis-transcription of Shelburn.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Donegal/Castleforward/Gortree/500428/

Evidently the parents were both dead if Joseph is looking after his 2 siblings. Joseph Shelburn Wray married Martha Francis Gardiner on 19.7.1906 at St Johnston Presbyterian.

Perhaps this is Emily Wray in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Donegal/Killea/Listicall_Upper/500747/

Fambuff3
25-11-17, 14:35
Thanks Elwynn. Shelburn Kincaid was C of I and was a Mason. Ann & Williams marriage came from Family Search but I don't have any further information sorry. Re Mary- looking at baptism records but anything on the marriage to David would be appreciated especially children. I have Emily Wray thank you. Will get the Mary Wray-John McFeeter's marriage thank you for that-I couldn't see a Mary Wray. William Moore was a labourer so moved about I presume. I need to have a look at the marriage of Jane to find the information you asked for. Thank you so much Maggie

Elwyn
26-11-17, 09:40
Masons used to move about a lot to follow the work, and so it may be that some children were baptised in different parishes. Not all Church of Ireland (COI) parish records have survived the 1922 fire, and of those that do still exist, not all are on-line. PRONI in Belfast has a copy of all the surviving COI records for Co. Donegal and you can see from their church record catalogue what exists. But the records themselves are not on-line and a personal visit is required to view them.