Last ditch effort for my grandparents

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Annie seems to have her own interpretation of what a husband is :D Annie "a law unto herself" Turner/Towsend?etc......

Between us i reckon we already know what the new cert will say based on the combination of the rumour, the certs i already have and the bmd index.

Unless we are way off the mark and that cert throws a spanner in the works, trying to place her on the electoral roll from 1927 onwards seems a reasonable step, i might not find her for every year (depends on her chosen surname i suppose) but if i can pin her down for a year or two especially post war that seems to be the best way to work backwards.

Worst case scenario she vanishes and there isn't a death ref to match but until i look into it then it is pointless speculating, but i get a feeling that it's a trawl for a death that is pre 1984 under one surname or another.

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Got the cert today.


It certainly looks like Annie was using the surname of Goddard, she was the informant and the "A" in A. Goddard matches the birth cert for James (both certs are scans of the original regster).




Column 5 on the cert
Annie Goddard, formerly Turner

Column 7 on the cert
A Goddard
mother
82 Monks Road
Lincoln


The father looks to be Butler Goddard??

[maudarby]

Hi Glen
As you can guess I have been hovering all morning to see if the cert arrived and while I was waiting I did another Goddard/Turner marriage search on FreeBMD and the Butler one came up but I disregarded it because it was in Sheffield. Jun qtr 1927 Sheffield. I wish now that I had made a note of the Goddard mmn Turner births that I found in Sheffield. Are you conviced that it is your Annie?
Moggie

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

I'm just going to scan the signature on the birth cert for James and crop the signature, you can only compare the letter A but it does look very very similiar.

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Here we go; Does this look like the same hand?


1923 as Annie Townsend




1934 as Annie Goddard



I'm looking at the "A", the tail of the "T" and "G" as well as the letter "d".



I did notice that there is a 1901 and 1911 census for Butler Goddard, born 1893 Sheffield. The 1911 is still Sheffield.

[maudarby]

Hi Glen
The A on both entries do look very very similar. It seems that Butler could have married a Minnie Gleadhall in 1913 so we need to look for a death for her between then and 1927. Can you PM me your e mail address so that I can attach a bit more info.
Moggie

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Right place, right sort of time??

Deaths Sep 1926

Goddard Minnie 33 Lincoln 7a 463

[Janet in Yorkshire]

The lower case "o" in Townsend and Goddard look to have been formed in the same way, too.

[Orangeblossom]

Just wanted to add, they do look like the same person. Given then almost 10 year gap between them, they're almost identical (apart from the surname, obviously lol)

As a side, I was nosey and did a search on FreeBMD. There is a marriage in 1927, which I think you already know about, plus a couple of births in Sheffield which may be related.

Looks like you're well on your way to getting this sorted

[fiona c]

Glenn, there is an Army record for Butler Goddard on Ancestry that shows he and Minnie had 3 children. There are a couple of people on GR with Butler in there trees, maybe they could help you?

There is also a tree on Ancestry but it only had the one child, Butler's and Annie's child b. 1930, maybe they know more than they have added and could help?

The Ancestry tree says Butler died in 1942 in Lincoln, maybe the G. Goddard on James' certificate was a brother?

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

The unusual name for the father matches two marriage records, one in 1913 and one in 1927, rather conveniently there is a death in 1926 which matches the name of the first wife.

Adding the kids from the first marriage for Butler to what appears to be the kids from the second plus the two kids Annie Turner had under the surname Townsend suggest that Lincoln and Sheffield both feature, There is a tree on Ancestry suggesting Annie is from Sheffield originally. It also gives a date and address for her death.

Based on birth refs alone by 1933/4 Annie and Butler had amassed 14 kids between them by their (then) current and former relationships, i'm not entirely convinced that all are connected but without proof (eg baptism or certs) i can only use the mmn as a guide.

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Glenn, there is an Army record for Butler Goddard on Ancestry that shows he and Minnie had 3 children. There are a couple of people on GR with Butler in there trees, maybe they could help you?

There is also a tree on Ancestry but it only had the one child, Butler's and Annie's child b. 1930, maybe they know more than they have added and could help?

The Ancestry tree says Butler died in 1942 in Lincoln, maybe the G. Goddard on James' certificate was a brother?

Thanks Fiona

Moggie has sent me a copy of the army page with the details for the wife and three children and a screengrab from Ancestry for Annie with dob and dod et which includes the 1942 stuff for Butler.

I listed the kids from 1913 to 1934 by birth year in a pm to Moggie, the dates and places suggest that my theory of events and places is possible, shame that because they are relatively recent (and possibly living) i can't really post it on here because i would appreciate suggestions. The G. Goddard witness could well be a half brother to James Townsend, the bmd index does show a possible candidate in amongst the 14 kids. I don't think all 14 survived but some of the girls have slightly unusual forenames which might make things easier to follow up.

The 1911 isn't much use with this lot and the 1921 still isn't late enough so i might have a long long wait for answers:(

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

This a pie in the sky theory but bear with me, i'm just wondering if anyone thinks this is plausible or complete rubbish, no names of children posted due to dates.

Fact; 1919-1927
Annie Turner and John Towsend have three sons in Lincoln, verified by certs and electoral rolls which prove their address, the timeframe etc but there does not appear to be a marriage.

Fact; 1913
Butler Goddard marries Minnie Gleadhall in Sheffield

Fact; 1913-1917
Butler and Minnie have three children in Sheffield (from bmd and army records)

Theory; 1920-1926
Now in Lincoln, the bmd index shows Goddard children with mmn Gledhall* note the different spelling"

mmn Gledhall born Lincoln

Daur 1920
Daur1923
Son 1924
Daur 1926

Fact; 1926
Minnie dies in Lincoln, burial record shows her buried in Sheffield (bmd and cemetery register)

Fact; 1927
Marriage, Butler Goddard to Annie Turner, Sheffield (bmd)

Theory; 1928-1930
Sheffield, bmd index shows the following Goddard births with mmn Turner

Son 1928
Son 1929
Daur 1930

1933-4

Lincoln again, bmd index shows Goddard children births with mmn Turner

Albert 1933 (appears in the death index in 1934, burial records shows address as Monks Road)

Daughter born 1934, place of birth and address of mother (Annie Goddard, formerly Turner), Monks Road.

--------

Events fit a timeline and are consistent to two places, Butler Goddard is an unusual name and his occupation from army records and the 1934 cert match.

Theory
After leaving the army Butler moves to Lincoln, his wife dies in 1926,
Annie Turner, or Goddard as she claimed disappears from the electoral roll in 1927, (is the 1927 info compiled in 1926?).

Perhaps Butler and Annie lived close to each other or where neighbours???

Butler and Annie marry in Sheffield in 1927 a few months after the funeral of his first wife, from 1927 onwards my family tree expands.


----
Possible theory or complete codswallop?????

[Orangeblossom]

I'd say it's a definite possiblilty.

I wonder if John and Bulter were Army buddies? Seems odd that she wouldn't marry the first guy she had kids with, but did the second.

[fiona c]

I would agree it is possible.

I would also have to get intouch with the several people on GR who have names of some of the children who look like they are Butler's and Annie's if only to rule it out. They may very well have some useful info for you.

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

I'm not a member of GR anymore and the Ancestry sub has gone, typical:(

Strangely though for the first time in three years someone has just in the last ten minutes been in touch via Ancestry asking about one of my other lines.

Is there a hose somewhere, i'm on fire at the minute:D

[Uncle John]

Is there a hose somewhere, i'm on fire at the minute:D

If you ask MacBev nicely she'll send you a WA firefighter. :D:D

[maudarby]

Hi Glen
I seem to have become a bit involved with your family (just plain nosey!) and I would like to add a few of my thoughts to your search to prove or disprove that Annie Turner the mother of John & James Townsend was the same Annie Turner who married Butler Goddard.

1) Did Annie Turner know Butler Goddard before he married Minnie?
2) Annie Townsend who was eligible to vote in 1920 must have been born
c1890 or earlier.
3) Although Annie Townsend was listed in the voting register in 1927 was this as you suggested compiled in 1926? Nowadays we fill in a form in October and our names go onto the following years register.
3) 1926 seems to be the pivotal year for the Townsends and the Goddards.
Butler's wife Minnie died leaving him with 7 children, the youngest possibly a few weeks old. Did Annie step in and offer to look after the children while Butler arranged for Minnie to be buried back in Sheffield? Did she go with him to help look after the children and not come back ?
4) Butler Goddard died in 1942 so after the war ended and street directories were once again published Annie would have been listed as Mrs Goddard.
A Mrs Goddard appears in 1946 at 13, Newport, Lincoln. The same address given by James Townsend when he married in 1945.
5) The ideal outcome would be to find that either John or James Townsend registered Annie Goddard's death because by 1946 James and possibly John (if he was also married) would not be listed with Annie in the electoral register.

Moggie

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Moggie

it's easy for me to post the results of all the bits and pieces that have emerged in a way that is almost too convenient. Independant eyes such as yours are what i need to make me step back and think about what would be the best course of action.

I keep referring to electoral rolls and i think there is some merit in going back to those for possible answers to some of the questions. Others may disagree and i welcome any comments and suggestions about the methods that will be the most use.

Thinking outloud again;

the 1920's results for Nixons Court and the surrounding streets may just show the Goddard family close by, although it won't prove Annie knew the Goddard family beforehand.

The post war rolls for 13 Newport are worth looking at, perhaps Annie and some of the children may be listed together, also searching the address given for Annie at her death. I will probably finish up with a period in between when i cannot locate Annie in the rolls but directories could yield some clues.

I'm thinking that if i can compile (as completely as sources allow) information about the addresses Annie occupied, and the names of others in the household year by year that may show children from one relationship or another that connect Annie to both Butler Goddard and John Towsend.

I did a very similiar thing based on a single property a while ago, one owned by a relative that was rented to family, the results were quite useful and showed who lived there at certain times, the family connection stopped the year after the elderly owner died. (Perhaps a clue to the info collected one year being used the next?).


James Townsend was certainly in Lincoln during the 1950's and 1960's, that being the time many of his Lincoln born children made their appearances, i came along in 1966 and he was around for a year or two after that in Lincoln. John was around in Lincoln during the 1980's, perhaps one of them registered Annie's death in 1970 so i will have to look at that event too.

[Lynn The Forest Fan]

I've nothing constructive to add, but just wanted to say that this is fascinating & I think you are really onto something here.