Last ditch effort for my grandparents

[maudarby]

Could this be the burial of Joseph in 1925? Do you have his death certificate?
I don't know if the cemetery records would have any further information. If the family was poor there might not be a headstone but there could be another family member buried with him.
Moggie

13th Nov 1925 Joseph Townsend age 5 months buried at Lincoln, St Swithins Cemetery.

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

I didn't get the death cert but that certainly looks like the right one.

The birth registration is Jun qtr and the death reg is Dec qtr so that would match.

The St Swithins ref is useful to know, it is the closest church to where Nixons Court stood, suggesting the baptism records could also be associated to the same place. The burial would be in the Canwick Road site.

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

I'm just thinking outloud here but if anyone wants to comment on the idea please do;

The certs and electoral roll info for the 1920's tallies together and both documents show the same address.

The only documents that may show anything else are the baptism records and that burial record posted above so i'm hoping to persuade someone to check those for me at some point (i never like Lincs Archive search fees)

The years around WWII are next on my list, Lincoln library offer a search service and i'm going to ask them to search the mid/late 1930's and the late post war rolls for the address James gave on his marriage cert. James won't be there post war years and he was too young to vote pre war but there may be a reference to the Townsend or Turner surnames, if there isn't all is not lost, at least it eliminates the address.

So baptism and burial records from the 1920's and electoral rolls from the late 30's and 40's. Is there anything else to consider or is it best to wait and see first?

[maudarby]

Hi Glen
The occupant of 13 Newport in 1946 was Mrs GODDARD.
This is the only directory on Ancestry in that timeframe which covers Lincoln.
As you know there won't be any directories 1939-1945 but it might be worth following on from 1946 to see how long she lived there or go back to see if she was there in 1938
Moggie

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Hi Glen
The occupant of 13 Newport in 1946 was Mrs GODDARD.
This is the only directory on Ancestry in that timeframe which covers Lincoln.
As you know there won't be any directories 1939-1945 but it might be worth following on from 1946 to see how long she lived there or go back to see if she was there in 1938
Moggie

Oh blimey.

The story goes that Annie took up with a chap called George Goddard (possibly the G.Goddard marriage witness?), heave knows if this is true or not but it seems a huge co-incednence to have the surname appear at that address at the right timeframe.

The only other thing i can think of for now is that the Goddard and Townsend family were known to each other and James perhaps lived with them at some point.

[maudarby]

Hi Glen
I see from your other thread that someone has very kindly offered to do some look ups for you at Lincoln Archives. Personally I would put the baptism look ups on hold for the time being and consentrate on the Goddard connection. I also now think that the directories may only continue to list her as Mrs Goddard while the electoral registers should give her christian name and from that you can descide whether she could be Annie Turner/Townsend and there may be other occupants named.
I am going to PM you some info that I have found which I don't feel should be added to this thread.
Moggie

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Thanks Moggie

[Joan of Archives]

Sorry if this is a daft idea Glen but did you say one of her children is buried in Lincoln?

If they were buried in the council cemetery rather than a churchyard, have you thought to contact them for info? By contacting Southend cemetery I found out where my g. g. granddad was buried, my great aunt and her husband, they told me who arranged the funerals, the addresses and sent me copies of the headstone, inscription, everything.

It could be worth checking in case they have a record of the mother's name and address from when they arranged the child's funeral.

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Sorry if this is a daft idea Glen but did you say one of her children is buried in Lincoln?

If they were buried in the council cemetery rather than a churchyard, have you thought to contact them for info? By contacting Southend cemetery I found out where my g. g. granddad was buried, my great aunt and her husband, they told me who arranged the funerals, the addresses and sent me copies of the headstone, inscription, everything.

It could be worth checking in case they have a record of the mother's name and address from when they arranged the child's funeral.

Hi Joan

It is Lincoln, unfortunately they charge £15 a lookup but all is not lost...

It just so happens that Mauderby has found some details for the 1925 burial and details for events in the 1930's this afternoon. The 1925 burial confirms the Nixons Court address so i know it is my uncle. The 1930's info is largely in line with a family rumour.

I have sent away for a cert from the 1930's, it may well be the key to unlocking some answers, i'm almost sure i know what the cert will reveal before it arrives (save for the actual date) but it's thanks to Mauderby that things look to be heading the right way. I can't say much more really but this cert could be the best thing to hit my tree for ages.

[Joan of Archives]

Ok Glen good luck. Do the Council charge to look for burials in the council cemetery? Normally it's free & a lot of info can be got that way if you get a nice helpful person to speak to.

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Ok Glen good luck. Do the Council charge to look for burials in the council cemetery? Normally it's free & a lot of info can be got that way if you get a nice helpful person to speak to.

Last time i enquired it was £15 a lookup, odd times you might get lucky with a phone enquiry but not very often. Believe me i have tried at every hour of every day and there is no magic secret :(

If you pitch up at the cemetery on the day and the workmen are around they dig out the old maps and try to get their bearings but you need a plot number first. Luckily a lot are on online at FHO but that site is set to close soon and records are being moved to another source.

The cemetery is huge, split into two sections (plus the crem) and has around 18,000-20,000 burials About 150 of them are my lot.

[maudarby]

Hi Glen
I too am waiting with baited breath for the arrival of the cert but because it was just such a coincidence that Joan of Archives had posted a message about Southend cemetery I felt I also had to "sing their praises". The cemetery staff are so helpful and on 2 occasions have helped me to locate graves, the info produced from original hand written registers and not computerised records. No 1 was for the first wife of my friend's father (which he never knew about); he was the product of wife no 3. His father, long deceased, is still the "owner" of the grave which still has room for 3 other occupants & no 2 was the grave of the grandmother of a GR contact. He never knew his grandmother because she abandoned his mother and went off with another man in 1914. As far as we know she never married him but was buried with his surname.
Moggie

[Joan of Archives]

Hi Glen
I too am waiting with baited breath for the arrival of the cert but because it was just such a coincidence that Joan of Archives had posted a message about Southend cemetery I felt I also had to "sing their praises". The cemetery staff are so helpful and on 2 occasions have helped me to locate graves, the info produced from original hand written registers and not computerised records. No 1 was for the first wife of my friend's father (which he never knew about); he was the product of wife no 3. His father, long deceased, is still the "owner" of the grave which still has room for 3 other occupants & no 2 was the grave of the grandmother of a GR contact. He never knew his grandmother because she abandoned his mother and went off with another man in 1914. As far as we know she never married him but was buried with his surname.
Moggie

They are great aren't they Moggie?

I am surprised, the only time I was asked to pay to locate a grave was when it was a Parish Council that owned the cemetery. The normal County Councils I have contacted have never asked for a fee.

Poor Glen, you have my deepest sympathy then, although for £15 you may actually get a lot more info than that which is on a death certificate.

Good luck!

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Thanks Joan

I tend to find the MI listings at Lincoln library to be really useful, although they may not always give a lot of detail they have led me to a few deaths that didn't jump out the bmd index, the cemetery register info has also helped confirm a few rellies too with address details that match to other family, though in fairness my maternal birth family side tended to rent their houses from my grt g/m. Armed with a fwe addresses from certs and electoral lookups covering 1905-1956 allowed me to place several family groups in certain houses and follow each group from one property to another.

My birth fathers' side is a bit different and the breakthrough that should come with this will make a big hole in the mystery (says he hopefully). It won't answer everything about granny but if i can prove where she was during the 1930's and 1940's it saves a 20 year trawl for a death that didn't happen. Again by using the electoral rolls i might even discover where she lived from the 1920's through to the 1940's and possibly beyond that.

Roll on this cert arriving.

[maudarby]

Hi Glen
Re my post #21 with the details of Joseph T’s burial where I suggested there might be other family members buried with him, I am almost certain now that there were none.
The coverage for St Swithins Cemetery Lincoln in the NBI is 1890-1999
There are 13 Townsend burials listed including Joseph.
I have omitted 4 burials in the 1990’s. Apart from the first one they all belong to the same Townsend family. I have been trying to find a connection between them and your family but no luck so far. I did notice that Hale St (1891) was in the same enumeration district as Sincil St.

1893 10th Nov Elsie Annie age 9mths Nothing else known.
1906 12th Apr Frank age 12mths Abode 23 Bernard St
1909 12th Apr Hilda age 13mths Abode Bernard St
1912 26th Oct Mary Helen age 23 Abode Bernard St
1916 1st Jun George Cole age 52 Abode Bernard St. Married to Mary Jane.
((1925 13th Nov Joseph age 5mths Abode Sincil St,Nixons Ct))
1926 10th Mar Mary Jane age 59 Abode Bernard St. Married to George Cole.
1932 17th Apr Rosaline age 1day Abode Bernard St mmn was Scott
1933 28th Jan Amy age 29 Abode Hood St. With parents George & Mary in 1911

Address in 1911 was 23 Bernard St Lincoln.
“ in 1901 was 7 Mint St Lincoln
“ in 1891 was 17 Hale St Lincoln.


Moggie

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Thanks Moggie

I believe Hale St and Nixons Court were very close together, the site of Nixons Court stood on what is now a shopping centre on the main High Street, small yards with slum housing best describe the area. Both streets have now been demolished and Sincil St serves as an access for deliveries nowadays.

Bernard St isn't far away, one of the streets just off Monks Road.

At the moment i can't think of anything to look for that will help give dates/places for the births of John and Annie, i suppose Annie could have died at any time from the mid 30's onwards and used whatever surname suited at the time (or the surname of whoever she was with).

[maudarby]

Hi Glen
Just out of interest what was given on the birth cert for John Townsend's occupation.
Moggie

[Glen in Tinsel Knickers]

Hi Moggie

The 1920's birth cert shows Labourer

The 1945 marriage cert says bricklayers labourer, deceased.

I'm open minded about the deceased bit :D

One thing does puzzle me though, the 1920's electoral roll shows Annie, there is some reference to her eligibility to vote because of hubbys occupation, offhand i can't remember the exact wording and the reference from the book, i wonder if she was under the age of 30 or above?

[maudarby]

Hi Glen
Given your description of the area where they lived it was too much to hope for that his occupation was going to be doctor, lawyer etc.
I think you may be onto something with the voting issue. All men over 21 were given the vote in 1918 so I can't see how his occupation would have been an obstacle to Annie voting. Women age 30 and over were also given the vote but with some provisos. I think they had to be householders so would a married woman be considered a householder jointly with her husband?
I think you said that she appears in the voting register up to 1927 when she disappears. It wasn't until the following year that the voting age for women was reduced to 21. So are we getting an inckling of her age in 1920? Saying this if she went on to have other children in the 1930's she would have been 40+ years of age.
Moggie

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Glen,
Can't help, but really pleased for you that you might be on the verge of unravelling the mystery.
I know how much it means to you and how long you've been waiting!
Good luck - Jay