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  • Speaking Welsh??

    One of my Somerset relatives moved to Wales in 1887 and is living with her new husband in Colwinston(e), Glamorgan in 1891.

    By 1901 she has a new husband and is living in Llangeinor (Llangeinwyr??), Glamorgan. These places are about 10 miles apart, if I've identified them correctly!

    I was interested to note that in 1891 she said spoke Welsh and English along with the majority of people on the same page. By 1901 she had forgotten her Welsh and said she spoke only English, along with the majority on the same page.

    Is it just that the enumerators had a different opinion of what constituted being Welsh speaking - did a few words made you bilingual in the eyes of the 1891 enumerator? Or is it to do with the locations of these places?

    Any ideas/comments please

  • #2
    On the 1891, have a look at the people living in the same village. Think of how she would live, would she need to speak Welsh to live to day? ie if the local shopkeeper spoken only Welsh, she would have to learn & therefore be "both". Welsh is not the easiest of language & my thoughts are she would have only learnt out of necessity

    Also if it's Martha Riddler you are refering to, a few lines further up the census is John Arnott who is deaf & dumb. As his spoken language has been corrected to read "N" & dittos have been used the Ridler family have actually been marked down as being unable to speak!

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    • #3
      Also if it's Martha Riddler you are refering to, a few lines further up the census is John Arnott who is deaf & dumb. As his spoken language has been corrected to read "N" & dittos have been used the Ridler family have actually been marked down as being unable to speak!


      Well, if she's like those members of my dad's family who I have met, then that MUST be wrong!! lol

      I was a bit worried about John Arnott working at the blacksmiths. A bit dangerous if you couldn't hear or speak......

      I'm sure you are right about Martha needing a bit of Welsh when she was living somewhere where about 10% of people spoke Welsh only and nearly all the rest spoke both. I was just surprised that a move of only ten miles would take her to somewhere where the majority spoke English only.......

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      • #4
        there;s a bit about it here
        Vision of Britain | Guide to Census Reports | Selected Subjects: Language spoken in Wales and Monmouthshire

        but I suppose if someone asked "Can you speak Welsh?" or "Do you speak Welsh?" its possible to reply "Yes" even if you only know how to say "two pints of beer please"!
        ~ with love from Little Nell~
        Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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        • #5
          Thanks Nell! I think, having looked at a few other places in 1891, the enumerator for Martha's parish in 1891 included everyone who could say "two pints please" in the Both section!

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          • #6
            Hi Merry
            I had a similar mystery.
            Two brothers, born and bred in Wiltshire, migrated to Wales sometime in 1870's. Within a couple of years, one is superintendent of a workhouse in Cardiff, speaking Welsh and English and the other is on the council in Brecon, also speaking Welsh and English.

            I would have thought they would have had to speak really good Welsh to hold positions like that, but don't believe they could have picked the lingo up that quickly!

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            • #7
              I seem to have a lot of people migrate from Wiltshire and Somerset to the mines of Wales. They've not moved there from Gloucestershire at all!

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              • #8
                Bear in mind that for years the policy was for English to be spoken in Wales. I know of people who were punished for speaking Welsh at school. My own father in law spoke only Welsh (though he understood English) till he went to school. Now his great-nephews and nieces speak English till they go to school, where Welsh is a compulsory subject.

                And I've found a lot of my Glos rellies went to Wales - 3 brothers became miners and their sister ran a newsagents.
                ~ with love from Little Nell~
                Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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                • #9
                  I have relatives in 1891 who have moved to Llangeinor and other mining areas from Herefordshire.
                  Some married 'local' girls and 1891 shows my Alfred Davies speaking English, whereas his wife Hannah spoke Welsh......

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                  • #10
                    Well, there have always been Welsh people who wished to be independent, and they were certainly persecuted. But ordinary working folk would go where the work was, so lots of Englishmen went to work in the Welsh mines.

                    Similarly, lots of Welsh came to London, to run dairies etc. My Welsh father-in-law came at the age of 15 to be a bell hop for a hotel in Piccadilly.
                    ~ with love from Little Nell~
                    Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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                    • #11
                      Thought you might enjoy a giggle about Welsh translations:


                      In 2006, a road sign between Penarth and Cardiff, Wales, ordering "Cyclists Dismount" also had a translation into Welsh: "llid y bledren dymchwelyd" -- which means "bladder inflammation upset". The embarrassed local council promised to replace the sign immediately.

                      That blunder has finally been outdone.

                      This month the council in Swansea, Wales, put up a sign that said "No entry for heavy goods vehicles. Residential site only" that also needed a Welsh translation.

                      The council sent an e-mail to a translator, and added his response to the sign when they posted it:

                      The translation reads, "Nid wyf yn y swyddfa ar hyn o bryd. Anfonwch unrhyw waith i'w gyfieithu."

                      That phrase, translated back to English, reads, "I am not in the office at the moment. Please send any work to be translated."

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                      • #12
                        Bryan Yorath Williams

                        See below
                        Last edited by Jill on the A272; 05-11-08, 18:39. Reason: not paying attention, going to start separate thread

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                        • #13
                          Bryan Yorath Williams

                          My Williams family always used Yorath as a middle name which makes it easier and the fact that some were born in Chile made finding them on the census easier.

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                          • #14
                            My husband has Welsh ancestry. He has exactly half the surnames in his tree as I have in mine - so many of them are called Evans, Jones, Thomas and Williams. Then you get William Williams, Thomas Williams, William Thomas, Evan Evans and John Jones. John's daughter Mary Jones marries Thomas Williams and their daughter Mary Williams marries a Mr Jones - so Mary Jones reappears.

                            Nightmare!
                            ~ with love from Little Nell~
                            Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

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                            • #15
                              My mum's friend is Welsh and does not approve of people who delve into their family history.

                              Mum and I had a hysterical afternoon the other week delving into her friend's tree because we are nosy and also because mum had managed to ask her friend what her maiden name was without raising suspicion! We found all four of friend's grandparents in Cardiff on the 1901 census and, guess what, not only did none of them have those "Welsh" surnames, but also only one of them was born in Wales and the parents of that one were born in England!!! Is this the big secret mum's friend is hiding??????!! lol

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