Lancaster county

[alanjohn]

Merry

As far as I can remember from the original thread, Alanjohn knew that Silas's father was John and John's father was Samuel.

Either there were two identical Samuel Hattons,both flatmen, or there was only one and he was a bigamist!

The odd thing about it was, I found a John, aged 2 in 1841 with (presumably) father Samuel Hatton, a flatman, no wife, several other children. I found the baptisms of those other children, to Samuel Hatton and Elizabeth (first wife!) but not John's baptism.

I am working tomorrow all day, but when I get time I will sort out all these notes I have and try to put them in chronological order.

In the meantime, perhaps Alanjohn can tell us where he's up to!

OC

Ohgod i'm not getting far at all!I haven't looked at this for over a month,i just got so disillusioned with them all(john,silas,etc..),i had a few days off this week and i've just got sucked back in.
Samuel was born in 1799,and died in 1881,he was married three times:
Elizabeth Walker,Mary ann Emery,and Ann Davies,he also apparently outlived them all.
John seems to have been a labourer when he was married,and he fibbed about his age.
Neither John,Margaret or Silas seem to show on the 1881,91 census' either.
On John and Margaret's marriage they are said to be living at Trafford street,Manchester,and were married at the Cath. parish church.
I've actually had more success tracing the older generation of Hatton's,i've traced them back to the 1720's.
The only recent piece of info was when i was contacted by someone in the Richmond local studies library,i found some of my dads movements with his first wife from the 1950's electoral rolls.
As i said,John & Silas,very,very frustrating..!:(

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Any occ for John on Silas' marriage cert? (did he say father was dead?)

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

and he fibbed about his age.

What did he say?

[alanjohn]

They were married 25/12/1871,he gave his age as 28,and his profession as "labourer".
when Silas was born John's profession was "carter",and when Silas married he was a labourer again,he also wasn't noted as deceased,although Silas wife's (Amelia) father was noted deceased.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Thanks! Too tired to think about this now, but I'll have a go in the morning......(trouble is I know I've looked at it it before, but didn't get anywhere last time! lol)

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Oh, any Hatton witnesses to any events?

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

i'm also trying to figure out if ,after he got married,he had a few kids before 1912.
silas was married in 1901,but his first son isn't noted till 1912

I wonder if this is one of theirs? (going mainly on the use of three forenames and it being Amelia!)

Births Dec 1910
HATTON Amelia L M Croydon 2a 327

I don't know if you have the Jun 1912 cert for Silas S J, but if you do and this one for Amelia is another of their children and was perhaps born at the same address as Silas S J, then would it be worth forking out for the 1911 census for that address??

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

At last!! Something!! lol

Here are Silas Hatton's parents, John and Margaret Hatton in 1901:

John Hatton head 67 General Labourer b Winsford Cheshire
Margaret Hatton, wife 49 b Shropshire, (placename illegible to me!)

living at 3 Clarence Road, Penge Kent.

RG13; Piece: 651; Folio: 106; Page: 37 (transcribed as Hutton)

His age is a little out, but the place of birth when combined with hers and them being in the right vicinity for their son's marriage the following year, makes me think this is the right couple.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Merry

Found this note:

Margaret Craven 1871 RG10 4039 86 30

OC

I think we can safely upgrade this Margaret to 100% the right person as long as she said her father was Benjamin Craven on her marriage cert???! UPDATE: If her father wasn't Benjamin, then see next post!!

I asked about Amner (her 1871 place of birth) and the place mentioned in 1901 on this thread:

http://www.familytreeforum.com/research-advice/42835-shropshire-geography-expert-needed.html

and Kite Runner came to the rescue for the correct parish(es) (Hamner or Horseman's Green about 1½ miles away) which are in Flintshire, not Shropshire, but that's not far away at all.

So, I think this is Margaret Craven in 1861 (Welsh Census):

RG9; Piece: 1882; Folio: 20; Page: 11

In 1851 she isn't quite born, but all these siblings and parents match (Welsh census again)!

HO107; Piece: 1994; Folio: 117; Page: 20

Annoyingly, there are two possible birth registrations:

Births Jun 1851
Craven Margaret Ellesmere 18 71

Births Sep 1851
Craven Margaret Ellesmere 18 76


*fingers crossed her father is Benjamin*

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Having said all the above, the daughter of Benjamin Craven (Margaret aged 20) is still at home in 1871 whilst the other Margaret that OC found was living in Manchester!!

So, now I've gone from hoping she said Benjamin for her father's name on the marriage cert, to thinking maybe she didn't? Remember there were two Margaret Craven's registered for birth in 1851 in Ellesmere District, so maybe one is Benjamin's daughter and the other one is yours??

As an aside............I noticed that the Margaret in Manchester in 1851 was living nextdoor to some boaty people from Over in Cheshire......

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I think this is the other Margaret Craven (ie to go with the other birth reg in 1851, but I don't know which one is which, obviously!!)

Did your Margaret say her father was Thomas?

This family are on the English 1861

RG9; Piece: 2642; Folio: 25; Page: 44

and they say their nine-year-old dau Margaret was born in Wales.

On the Welsh 1851 Thomas and Phoebe Craven are living at Halghton, Flintshire which is mid-way between Hamner and Horseman's Green!

HO107; Piece: 1994; Folio: 138; Page: 20

(obviously without Margaret as she haadn't yet been born)

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

And after all that, I still haven't found John, Margaret and Silas in 1881 and 1891 (or Silas in 1901, but maybe that's not so important?)

At least we know that John and Margaret were both alive for both those censuses, so that makes searching a bit more positive......there's nothing like searching for someone when they might be dead, for putting me off bothering! lol

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I have just found Thomas and Phoebe Craven in 1871 (Wales) and their daughter, Margaret is NOT at home. I am hoping she is John Hatton's bride.

RG10; Piece: 2787; Folio: 54; Page: 17

[Olde Crone Holden]

Just as an aside, John Hatton and Margaret Craven married at Manchester Cathedral, which is Anglican, not Roman Catholic.

Samuel Hatton is looking like a bigamist, I'm afraid, as his second wife is on the 1861 census at one address, and Samuel and wife number three are at another address. (See my previous post)

I base this on the fact that there is only one baptism for Samuel Hatton at the right time/right place, but there really could be two of them I suppose.

Merry, Hatton is frequently mistranscribed as Halton (and Hutton, as you already discovered) but I think I submitted corrections at the time, so you should be able to find the ones I corrected - which aren't the ones we are looking for now, of course, lol!

OC

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Just as an aside, John Hatton and Margaret Craven married at Manchester Cathedral, which is Anglican, not Roman Catholic.

Samuel Hatton is looking like a bigamist, I'm afraid, as his second wife is on the 1861 census at one address, and Samuel and wife number three are at another address. (See my previous post)

I base this on the fact that there is only one baptism for Samuel Hatton at the right time/right place, but there really could be two of them I suppose.

Merry, Hatton is frequently mistranscribed as Halton (and Hutton, as you already discovered) but I think I submitted corrections at the time, so you should be able to find the ones I corrected - which aren't the ones we are looking for now, of course, lol!

OC

If Samuel was a bigamist and he was John's father (is that right?) was his marriage to John's mother a legal one? Just wondered if there was an altercation that led to John and Margaret using John's mother's surname or something like that?? I think it's highly unlikely, seeing as they were Hatton in 1901, but I'm clutching straws lol

[alanjohn]

"Three more streets west of Eagle street and a couple of rows to the north was Baxter street, which ran in a northern direction. Baxter street and other streets surrounding this street were bombed during the war. Just a few streets away was Gaythorn Gas works".
I found this last night and apparently where John and Margaret lived,and where Silas was born was flattened during the war.

Yes,Thomas was Margaret's father,he was a joiner by trade.

I've also found a Silas Hatton,on A2A,he was a private in the second london yeomanry,between 1915-16.Hoping this is my grandfather!

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Yes,Thomas was Margaret's father,he was a joiner by trade.

I've also found a Silas Hatton,on A2A,he was a private in the second london yeomanry,between 1915-16.Hoping this is my grandfather!

Glad to hear Thomas was Margaret's father

I saw that entry on Ancestry for Silas Hatton. I don't think his full Army record has survived though :o (only the medal card)

[alanjohn]

If Samuel was a bigamist and he was John's father (is that right?) was his marriage to John's mother a legal one? Just wondered if there was an altercation that led to John and Margaret using John's mother's surname or something like that?? I think it's highly unlikely, seeing as they were Hatton in 1901, but I'm clutching straws lol

Least the family tree isn't boring i suppose,I've been looking at 'Elizabeth Walker's',as this was apparently Samuels first wife.

What if john wasn't born/baptised as Hatton(i cant find a baptism),cause Samuel wasn't around,he only started using the surname Hatton after his mother died and he moved in with Samuel?

Oh, and thankyou very much for proving Margaret and John were around in 1901,that's a huge step forward,i'd come to the conclusion that Margaret had died before Silas' marriage.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

OMG Walker was one of the names that kept coming up (but no Silas)

I can't remember when that was now or what criteria I put in to find them!

Back in a bit.............................

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

It's no good.......I've been doing this all day and I've no idea where I saw the name Walker now.

Off to have my meal.