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Latin Translation - can anyone help please?

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  • Latin Translation - can anyone help please?

    I have come across the following in a Parish Register and can't make head nor tail of it!!! Can anyone help with a translation please?

    Uxor supradicta Elezze White, nomini David, in asylo apud Bromley insania causa LXXVII dico sine ulla intermissione detentus, 31st March 1874 mortuus est. Hae non levitie, sed ad futuras quoestiones evilandas hic relata suut.


    Very many thanks.
    Chris

  • #2
    Eliza (or Elizabeth) White, the former? wife of David, was committed to the asylum at Bromley, insane and has died, 31 March 1874.

    I can't translate the last sentence properly - someone else will! Something about all questions being directed to....

    OC

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    • #3
      Many thanks OC - I'll wait and see if anyone can help with the last bit.

      I'm very grateful!
      Chris

      Comment


      • #4
        I think supradicta might mean "aforesaid", i.e. mentioned previously, rather than "former". And the middle of the first sentence looks like "held without any intermission" but I'm not sure what the LXXVII (77) dico bit means. I'm also a bit confused as to why the words detentus and mortuus seem to be masculine rather than feminine as you would expect? Though it could just be that the person who wrote them wasn't very good at Latin?
        KiteRunner

        Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
        (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks Kite - I believe it was the Vicar that wrote it as the writing is the same as the other entires!
          Chris

          Comment


          • #6
            Could "evilandas" be "evitandas"? Meaning "to be avoided". I think the second sentence might be something about avoiding mentioning it in future, which might be why he wrote in Latin which few readers would understand.
            KiteRunner

            Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
            (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

            Comment


            • #7
              Good thinking! I did think it was very late to be writing stuff in the Registers in Latin - perhaps the family were trying to keep it quiet.

              Thanks for your help - gradually getting there!
              Chris

              Comment


              • #8
                I don't think it's all been copied out quite right.

                I would guess it means:

                The aforesaid Eliza?, wife of David White, died on 31st March 1874, having been incarcerated continuously at Bromley Asylum for 77 days? on the ground of insanity. This [information] is not frivolous?, but is recounted to prevent future disputes.
                Last edited by Mary from Italy; 13-12-08, 16:39.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Oh, that makes sense, Mary.
                  KiteRunner

                  Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                  (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It's a bit of a guess, but hopefully Roger will turn up later to put us right

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hairsplitting, but "the aforementioned" means there must be some more information in the register before this bit!

                      I jumped the gun and "assumed" there might have been a divorce situation here?

                      (Yes Kate, some Vicars' Latin grammar was as lousy as mine, lol.)

                      OC

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mary from Italy View Post
                        It's a bit of a guess, but hopefully Roger will turn up later to put us right
                        Here I am, like the proverbial bad penny whenever Latin is mentioned :D

                        It is odd that some of the word endings are masculine in form, but my guess is that it might mean something like this:

                        The aforesaid Elleze White, wife [of a man, understood] of the name of David, in the asylum of Bromley by reason of [?insanity] 77 [years of age, perhaps?], I say detained without any intermission, died 31st March 1874. These things are related here not as [?gossip] but in order to avoid future questions.

                        I think the last word is probably "sunt", part of the construction "hic relata sunt".
                        Last edited by Roger in Sussex; 13-12-08, 21:14. Reason: second thoughts!!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          My little Latin dictionary confirms that insania means madness and intermissio means interruption, so sine (nulla) intermissione would be uninterruptedly/continuously.

                          You may be right that her age was 77, but I wondered whether dico (I say) should actually be dies (day) or something of the kind.
                          Last edited by Mary from Italy; 13-12-08, 21:24.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mary from Italy View Post
                            My little Latin dictionary confirms that insania means madness.

                            Yoiu may be right that her age was 77, but I wondered whether "dico" should actually be "dies" or something of the kind.
                            Mary, my little Latin dictionary does too, but I missed it when I saw insanitas, which is why I put the question mark in:o:o:o:o

                            I wondered if the Vicar used Roman numerals to prevent idle browsers from picking up the reference? "dico" does mean "I say", and I feel the second sentence is an explanation of why he had made the comment.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Could be - I was guessing at a mistranscription of dies/die, because 77 days would make sense of "continuously". It's rather a short time, though. I wonder why he thought her time in the asylum needed any explanation at all?

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                In 1871 an Ellen White aged 80, born in Cork, widow, is an inmate in the Stepney Union Workhouse at Bromley St. Leonard's.

                                Occupation: "worked in lead factory".

                                The age is a bit out (assuming the vicar meant she was 77 years old in 1874), but if you scrawl Ellen, it looks a lot like Elleze.

                                We've been translating asylo as asylum, but I don't suppose there is a Latin word for workhouse, and that would have been the nearest equivalent the vicar could think of.
                                Last edited by Mary from Italy; 13-12-08, 21:48.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Perhaps it was just a sort of aide-memoire for the Vicar's sake, or for the church authorities. Perhaps her husband had been posing as a widower. Perhaps he was recording the death but not the burial, the burial being done discreetly?

                                  Bethany's Gran - did you see this yourself on the original register, or has it been passed to you by someone else? I ask, because I feel there may be more information in the original register.

                                  OC

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Looking at it again, could it be that it is David who was insane and died on 31st March? That might make sense of the male endings, and possibly explain the age discrepancy. Perhaps we have been maligning the Vicar's knowledge of Latin?

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      These are the only White deaths registered in Bromley in the first two quarters of 1874:

                                      Deaths Mar 1874
                                      WHITE Mary Ann 31 Bromley 2a 225
                                      WHITE Mary Ann 34 Bromley 2a 225
                                      Deaths Jun 1874
                                      White Elizabeth 72 Bromley 2a 200
                                      White John 0 Bromley 2a 198

                                      Might be Elizabeth.

                                      I've looked for deaths in all areas of people aged 77 in those two quarters, and this is the most likely candidate:

                                      Deaths Mar 1874
                                      WHITE Eliza 77 St Giles 1b 358

                                      Which parish register does the entry appear in?
                                      Last edited by Mary from Italy; 13-12-08, 22:39.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I don't know which Bromley we are talking about, but here are the possible deaths (the easy bit! lol). Presumably it would be more likely the death was registered in Q2 than Q1:

                                        Deaths Mar 1874
                                        WHITE Ada Eliza 2 Poplar 1c 489
                                        WHITE Elizabeth 1 Poplar 1c 483
                                        WHITE Elizabeth Ann 75 Poplar 1c 490
                                        WHITE Ellen 1 Poplar 1c 424
                                        WHITE Emma 39 Poplar 1c 495
                                        WHITE Frederick James 3 Poplar 1c 492
                                        WHITE James 3 Poplar 1c 422
                                        WHITE Joseph 52 Poplar 1c 489
                                        WHITE Mary Ann 31 Bromley 2a 225
                                        WHITE Mary Ann 34 Bromley 2a 225
                                        WHITE Matilda 0 Poplar 1c 482


                                        Deaths Jun 1874
                                        White Alfred 0 Poplar 1c 414
                                        White Charlotte 1 Poplar 1c 389
                                        White David 45 Poplar 1c 358
                                        White Elizabeth 72 Bromley 2a 200
                                        White Elizabeth Ellis 0 Poplar 1c 379
                                        White John 0 Bromley 2a 198
                                        White Joseph 56 Poplar 1c 394

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