Letter signed by A.S.Gunnell - looking to return to family member [Archive]

Chrissie Smiff

14-04-11, 15:14

A friend found a letter 50 years ago and would love to pass it to a descendant. However, the information is very slight and I have no idea what to do next. Also, my knowledge of London is sketchy.

It was found in a flat in Acton (I am told near Wormwood scrubs) about 1950.
It is dated August the 24th 1866 and was sent from Lattimer House, Chiswick.
It was signed A S Gunnell. The only birth I can find for an A S Gunnell is an Ann Sarah Gunnell born in Marylebone in 1863, but she appears to have died the following year.

It seems virtually impossible to look for a marriage of an A S anything to a Gunnell (in case she was married).
I think it's a dead end but can anyone think of anything else I am overlooking please?

herky

14-04-11, 15:31

Huge longshot as I know nothing about London!!

There is Ann Sarah Gunnell bc 1790 in the 1851 census - she is a visitor, in Lambeth to a Chatterly family. The head of the house is a prof of Dancing.

Loopy Linda in La La Land

14-04-11, 15:35

Have you seen this Chrissie. a story about the people in the house in 1940 during an air raid

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/72/a7790772.shtml

Linda

Chrissie Smiff

14-04-11, 15:43

Thank you Herky, will go and have a look at that. It may be a relative, but I don't think it can be the same lady as she would have been 76 in 1866, and she was talking to the man (William) about a possible future together.

Yes, thank you Linda. That was the only thing I found while googling. I was hoping to find some mention of what the building was in 1866.

Mike Fisher

14-04-11, 15:47

There is an Ann S Gunnell age 71 in the 1861 census at 23 Chester St, Lambeth born Middlesex, Westm?????
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8767&iid=SRYRG9_352_355-0420&fn=Anne+S&ln=Gunnell&st=r&ssrc=&pid=6303804

plus-
Anne Sarah Gunnell
Record Type: Burial
Estimated Death Date: abt 1875
Burial Date: 28 Jul 1875
Age: 85
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1790
Parish or Poor Law Union: Norwood Cemetery, Norwood Road, Lambeth
Borough: Lambeth
COUNTY: Surrey
of 145 Kennington Rd

Chrissie Smiff

14-04-11, 15:50

I hope nobody minds if I post this here - it's the Ann Sarah Gunnell that Herky found and I don't want to lose it. As Herky said, she is living with the Chatterley family. I wonder if it was the inspiration for Lady Chatterly's Lover :) It looks as though she died in Lambeth in July-Sept 1875.
Off to look for her in 1861 and 1871.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=SRYHO107_1573_1573-0619&fn=Ann+Sarah&ln=Gunnell&st=r&ssrc=&pid=879677

Chrissie Smiff

14-04-11, 15:52

Mike Fisher

14-04-11, 15:54

In 1871 she's at 8 Victoria Rd
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7619&iid=LNDRG10_693_696-0389&fn=Ann+S&ln=Gunnell&st=d&ssrc=&pid=5647863

Chrissie Smiff

14-04-11, 15:59

It must be a different one surely? There is her age and I can't see why she would have been at Chiswick in 1866.
Of course, it would be William who was living in Acton presumably, where the letter was found.

Mike Fisher

14-04-11, 16:00

Ann Gunnell
birth: 24 Oct
christening: 15 Nov 1789 — Westminster, Middlesex, England
baptism:
death:
burial:
residence:
parents: Charles Gunnell, Ann Gunnell

Mike Fisher

14-04-11, 16:02

does it look like the letter of a 66 year old woman ?
where/who was it sent to?

Chrissie Smiff

14-04-11, 16:22

I haven't seen it yet Mike, I have only had it read out to me. Hubby saw it though and he says it looked more like a young handwriting and very neat.
It was sent to a William !! and I assume to the house in Acton where it was found. My friend can't remember the actual address that she found it in but says that it was near Wormwood scrubs. She only lived their very briefly when she was newly married.

I have to go now until this evening. Thank you for all your help, I shall have to ponder if there is anything else I can try.

Mike Fisher

14-04-11, 16:48

Here is her entry in the probate index
Gunnell Anne Sarah effects under £5,000 11Aug 1875
The will and two codicils of Anne Sarah Gunnell late of 23 Chester St, Kennington Rd, Lambeth in the county of Surrey, spinster who died 22 Jul 1875 at 145 Kennington Rd was proved at the principal registry by Samuel Burgess Gunnell of 8 St Johns Rd, Brixton in the said county Gentleman the nephew Charles Collambell of 15 Lambeth Terrace surgeon and Alfred Whitby Wilkinson of 8 Victoria Rd Clapham Common Gent the executors

Mike Fisher

14-04-11, 16:52

Also in the London Gazette 24 Aug 1875 asking for any claims on the estate

Mike Fisher

14-04-11, 16:59

There are 4 trees on Ancestry for Samuel Burgess Gunnell , so the family is about

Chrissie Smiff

14-04-11, 20:08

Oh thank you Mike, that's really helpful. I will see if I can contact the people on Ancestry.
Hubby is going to collect the letter for me tonight, so that I can see it for myself. Can't wait to see what I think.

Chrissie Smiff

15-04-11, 12:31

Well, I have now got the letter. I don't believe that it can be the same A S Gunnell. That one is too old. For one thing, this one talks about them both saving hard to get a home together in the future.
I'm not absolutely convinced (though hubby and friend are) that the signature is A S Gunnell. There is a longer space between the A and the S Gunnell.

I think the only way this could be solved is if I can find a Gunnel living at Latimer House Chiswick in 1861 or 1871. Does anyone know how to look for addresses on those census please?

I'm intrigued myself now. I want to know whether Miss Gunnell ever got to marry her William :) They are both obviously very much in love.

herky

15-04-11, 12:44

Oh lucky you having such a mystery - being from Scotland I don't know the area involved but I wish I could help as it is all so romantic.

herky

15-04-11, 13:00

How about this one in the 1861 census -
Ann S Gunnell bc 1840, in Brentford Middlesex, census place Ealing??

Good age to be writing love letters - in 1866 she would have been about 26.

darannon

15-04-11, 13:31

This is a really interesting mystery! Ann S Gunnell was in Brentford in 1851 and 1861 (Front Street and North Road respectively). Brentford is very near to acton and chiswick. Then in Mar 1867 there is a marriage between
Ann Sarah Gunnell and William Ham in Kensington Vol1a Page63
What do you think?? I'd say it's a definite possibility (:
Darannon

herky

15-04-11, 13:42

I have found Ann S Gunnell and Wm Ham in 1881 - living in Kensington - he is a coachman.
Perhaps Ann was a servant at Lattimer House prior to marriage and that is how they met.

1881 Census 58 Pembroke Road, Kensington
William Ham, bc 1856, Worldham, Hampshire, coachman
Ann S Ham, wife bc 1840, Brantford, Midddlesex
Elizabeth J Ham, bc 1870, Brentford
William Ham, bc 1875, Hammersmith
John Ham bc 1878, Hamersmith
Louisa (no date given for birth), b Kensington

herky

15-04-11, 13:56

I am probably still on the wrong family - but just in case - 1891
William mistranscribed as RAM - living with Annie (wife) and 2 children - he is still a coachman.
I m not sure if this is the same Ann or if he has remarried as the age is way out and they have a 2 year old child???

Vivienne

15-04-11, 15:39

Chrissie Smiff

15-04-11, 16:36

Oh thank you SO much Herky - Darannon and Viv. You have been busy :)

I have to fly now as we are out tonight and I need a bath. But I have copied all that down and I shall be itching to see if I can find any descendants of the couple. I'm sure you have found the right ones, it all fits so well. I despaired of finding another A S Gunnell.

margaretmarch

16-04-11, 11:30

Hi Chrissie, I've been following this thread but too slow to be of any help! Let me know when you need me :)
Margaret

Chrissie Smiff

16-04-11, 12:07

Thanks again Margaret :) I should hopefully need you quite soon now ;)

And a great big thank you again to Herky and Darannon for finding her :):)
YES, it's her. I have just found the marriage cert on Ancestry and she has signed it. The signature is IDENTICAL to the one on the letter WOOOOOOO :rotfl::rotfl:
I'm SO excited :D

p.s. Isn't genealogy great :rotfl:

Valice in Wonderland

16-04-11, 16:47

So nice to have proof positive, via a signature

Chrissie Smiff

16-04-11, 18:53

It is Val :)

Can anyone help please. I think I may have found one of the children's marriage. I can't find their childs birth though.
It says born Notting Hill on the census. There are only two possibles and one is St Giles and one is Pancras. Any idea which, if any, it could be please?

Elaine ..Spain

16-04-11, 19:23

What year are you talking about.

Notting Hill may come under the Kensington registration district - but I am not 100% sure

Rosi Glow

16-04-11, 22:22

Notting hill IS near Kensington...

Chrissie Smiff

16-04-11, 22:56

Thank you both but I'm afraid it doesn't help much. I can't find a birth for a daughter of Elizabeth Jane Ham, who married Michael Brennan. Emily Brennan was 4 in 1881, in hospital aged 14 in 1891 and 24 in 1911 with parents.

Gwyn in Kent

17-04-11, 01:23

Marriages Mar 1888
BRENNAN Michael Kensington 1a 265
HAM Elizabeth Jane Kensington 1a 265

Births Dec 1869
Ham Elizabeth Jane Brentford 3a 89

Chrissie Smiff

17-04-11, 09:16

Thank you Gwen :) Yes, that is the one, it's the birth of their daughter Emily Brennan that I can't find.

margaretmarch

17-04-11, 10:38

Chrissie , was trying to look at the family on those census you mention but can't see them at all. Can you post up the references please?
Margaret

PS now found them having got a fix on the year of birth.

margaretmarch

17-04-11, 10:48

How about this one born before the marriage
Emily Maria Ham
Year of Registration: 1887 Jul-Aug-Sep, Kensington Volume: 1a Page: 81

margaretmarch

17-04-11, 10:56

Could this be a marriage for her
Emily E Brennan
Spouse Surname: Worner
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1919, Brentford Volume Number: 3a Page Number: 114
can't see the name of the spouse.
Margaret

PS added following Herky's post - this is not correct.

darannon

17-04-11, 10:59

hi chrissie - i'm so pleased that this is the right lady - how amazing that you have her letter from all those years ago, I'm sure their descendants will be absolutely thrilled to hear about it (I think the search should be made into a tv programme!). I am on holiday now for a week, so I won't be able to join in the search, but I look forward to catching up with the thread
best wishes
Darannon

herky

17-04-11, 18:35

Hi, I have just checked the 1919 marriage - here are the details- This girl is Emily ELIZABETH not Emily MARIA but just in case!

9 March 1919
Emily Elizabeth Brennan, spinster aged 25 years, 5 Mile Hill, Terrace, Acton, father - Charles Edward Brennan, Carpenter
Charles Rober Worner, widower, aged 36, Police Constable, same address,father - Arthur Worner, platelayer

0h another thought - Emily Elizabeth would have been born c 1895 - so not a great match for 1877 birth.

Sorry - I am a bit confused - I can't find the censuses - was Emily born 1877 or 1887?
Thanks.

margaretmarch

17-04-11, 19:21

herky

17-04-11, 19:27

Thanks Margaret - I haven't found the censuses - any tips on finding Emily in the census would be great, just to have a wee look see.

margaretmarch

17-04-11, 19:30

Herky, I've amended my post above to give the 1901 ref.
Margaret

margaretmarch

17-04-11, 19:52

Here's the ref for 1891 RG12; Piece: 1037; Folio 84; Page 1
Margaret

herky

17-04-11, 20:30

Ah - thanks Margaret - silly me - I was looking for Brennan not Brennen !!
I have found the 1891 census as per your ref nos.
Thanks

margaretmarch

17-04-11, 22:24

Me too!
Margaret

Chrissie Smiff

18-04-11, 17:09

Oh dear, I'm so sorry. I didn't manage to get on today until now, and I have to dash again until tonight. Thank you all so much :)
I would be happy to add the links to census that I have found for various members of the family but it will have to be later.
I have started to type out a time line, so that I see what's what. I came to the same conclusion about the birth of Emily Maria Ham Margaret. I still can't find a marriage or death for her though. Will post my time line later as have to dash. Appreciate all the help :)

margaretmarch

18-04-11, 17:22

Just seen this death!!
Emily Maria Ham
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887
Year of Registration: 1887
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 0
DISTRICT: Kensington COUNTY: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a Page: 86

margaretmarch

18-04-11, 17:30

How about this marriage
Emily G Brennan
Year of Registration: 1911
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun DISTRICT: Brentford COUNTY: Middlesex Volume: 3a Page: 303

Chrissie Smiff

18-04-11, 20:16

I've just come back as promised to add my 'Time line' and I see that you have already spoiled my Emily Maria Ham possibility Margaret :rotfl:

Anne (The e dropped afterwards) Sarah Gunnell was christened April 26th 1840
Parents Thomas and Cecilia.
Ann Sarah Gunnel married William Ham 24th January 1867

FAMILY

Cecilia Anne Ham Jan-March 1868 Brentford – Christened 1st March 1868 at Brentford. Cecilia Ann married Henry Streams 29th March 1894 Kensington.

Children were –
Martha Elizabeth Streams baptised 31st Dec 1895
Louisa Streams baptised 23rd Jan 1897, probably died aged 2 1899 Kensington -
William Henry Streams baptised 25th May 1899, probably died aged 0 July-Sept 1899 Kensington
Emma Amelia Streams baptized 25th Sept 1900.

IN 1901 – Martha and Emma are there but there is one child in between which I can’t read and need to find. In 1911 There is an Annie 12, so possibly her.

Henry died June1906 aged 39 Kensington.
Cecilia Ann Streams married John Sayers 1909 Kensington. Uncertain about John (on 1911) birth as father died 1906.

1911
SAYERS, John Head Married M 39 1872 Hawker Flowers Midx Southall
SAYERS, Annie Wife Married 2 years F 43 1868 Midx Brentford (CECILIA)
STREAMS, Martha Daug In Law Single F 15 1896 Laundress London Kensington
STREAMS, Annie Daug In Law F 12 1899 School Midx Isleworth (Step)
STREAMS, Emily Daug In Law F 10 1901 School London Kensington (step)
STREAMS, John Daug In Law M 3 1908 London Hammersmith (Step!!)

Cecilia A Sayers died Oct-Dec 1946 Hammersmith aged 77
John Sayers died Sept 1928 – Kensington aged 58

Elizabeth Jane Ham Oct-Dec 1869 Brentford – Christened 7th November 1869 at St Georges Old Brentford – Probably had Emily Maria Ham (brought up as Brennan) before marriage – July-Sept 1887 Kensington.
Then married Michael Brennan Jan-March 1888 in Kensington. Michael born (Chiswick) April-June 1868 Brentford.

William Ham – Oct-Dec 1874 Kensington

John Ham – Oct-Dec 1877 Kensington

Louisa Ham Christened 24th July 1889

Ann Sarah Ham died (Mother). Still to find death

William Ham marries Annie Foster 7th December 1891 St Cuthberts Kensington – aged 42 Widower

herky

18-04-11, 20:46

Thanks for that - makes it lovely and clear.

herky

18-04-11, 20:56

Looking at Louisa Ham -
There is a Louisa A Ham marriage in Lambeth in 1919 - to a Charles W Rayner.
Sorry my English geography is poor so I am not too sure of the closeness to the correct area.

Lambeth, Surrey,
vol - 1d,
page - 575

herky

18-04-11, 21:00

Then there is a death for a Louisa Rayner in Camberwell, London in 1980.
Her birth date is given as 3 Feb 1889. Now you said that Louisa was christened 24 July 1889 - I wonder if she was born in Feb???!!

Or am I away on a wild goose chase!!!!
Volume: 11
Page: 1435

Chrissie Smiff

18-04-11, 21:07

Ohhhhh that does look like a possible Herky - thank you:)
I don't know the London areas that well either but when it comes to marriages and deaths they could easily have moved across London anyway :)

Chrissie Smiff

18-04-11, 21:11

I do hope it's her. They seem to have had 4 children :)

OH PIFFLE - ignore that. Those 4 had mother Hain, not Ham :(

P.P.S. It was Charles W RAYNOR, not Rayner

My head is in a spin - got to go now, probably just as well before I go mad :rotfl:

Christine in Herts

18-04-11, 23:59

I do hope it's her. They seem to have had 4 children :)

OH PIFFLE - ignore that. Those 4 had mother Hain, not Ham :(

P.P.S. It was Charles W RAYNOR, not Rayner

<snip>

How sure are you of "HAIN" instead of "HAM". Those names may look (not terribly) different in upper case, but in lower case - and in handwriting - they could look extremely similar. And RAYNER / RAYNOR are easily mistaken one for the other,similarly.

I wouldn't write them off without further checking. My g-g-father was in the GRO index as "Charlee", but that appeared as "Charles" when I ordered the cert. That's not the only such error I've seen.

Christine

Chrissie Smiff

19-04-11, 09:41

Thank yo Christine, but unfortunately I found the marriage for a Rayner to a Haine that fit :(

I did find a death for a Louisa Raynor that fit but she was 'up North' and I can't find any children for a Raynor or a Rayner with mmn Ham.

herky

19-04-11, 10:20

Back to the drawing board Chrissie!
Can you give a list of any names and dates that you would like us to concentrate on?
I just love this mystery - I would be really pleased to find an old love letter from my family.

Chrissie Smiff

19-04-11, 17:04

That's very kind of you Herky :)
Basically, my first choice would be to find a direct descendant of one of Ann Sarah's children (Cecilia Ann Ham - Elizabeth Jane Ham - William Ham - John Ham and Louisa Ham). I'm not having much luck so far. William and John are such common names that I have left them until last :)
Failing that, any blood relative who is really interested in genealogy.

I have spent hours so far looking. So any suggestions are always welcome.

herky

19-04-11, 17:35

I can see the problem - the nearer you get to the present time the harder it is - it is always so much easier going backwards.

Katarzyna

19-04-11, 19:10

Hi Chrissie,

I have put this tree on Ancestry so that you can do searches from there if you want to. It will be easier for everyone to follow. If you pm me your ancestry username or email addy (Herky and others too) I can make you all editors so you can add to it.

Katarzyna

19-04-11, 21:51

death Emily Maria Ham

Emily Maria Ham
1887
Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 0
Kensington
1a 86

Chrissie Smiff

19-04-11, 22:30

Goodness Kat, that's VERY kind of you :)
Will PM my details.

herky

19-04-11, 22:48

If it is ok with others then I will send my details too so that I can see the tree.
Thanks very much.
This is exciting and perhaps someone from the family will spot the tree and make contact.

Chrissie Smiff

19-04-11, 22:52

It's fine by me Herky, the more the merrier :)
Yes, I was thinking the same, someone may make a connection.

jadzia

20-04-11, 00:12

Wow Chrissie....This is great how exciting! :)

margaretmarch

20-04-11, 08:20

Thanks Kat for giving me access. I shall spend some time later today seeing what I can do to help.
Margaret

margaretmarch

20-04-11, 08:37

Chrissie, The children on the 1901 are Martha b1896, Amy b1898 and Emma b1901.
Margaret

Chrissie Smiff

20-04-11, 09:45

Thank you Ness :))

Thank you Margaret :) It looks as though Amy died then, or do we already know that? :D I keep having to flip backwards and forwards :D

We are off out for the day shortly. Frustrating as I can't wait to carry on searching. The weather is so beautiful though.

greyingrey

20-04-11, 12:15

I'm emailing all my friends & asking them if the names ring any bells with them or their elderly relatives (keeping quiet about what it's about though).....you never know

Katarzyna

20-04-11, 13:57

Chrissie, The children on the 1901 are Martha b1896, Amy b1898 and Emma b1901.
Margaret

I don't think it is AMY I think it is Anny which corresponds to 1901 census info. there are no BMD for an Amy :) Martha is transcribed as Jonathan on Ancestry!!!!

Katarzyna

20-04-11, 14:01

Annie is transcribed by Ancestry as Amy age 5. Image shows Anny age 3. I have deleted Amy from tree. If you disagree please re-add her!! :)

Can someone add the info for 1911 census I don't have all the relevant details or the reference (add detail and census ref to sources manually).

herky

20-04-11, 17:32

Thanks for the invite - off to have a look.

Chrissie Smiff

20-04-11, 17:55

Thank you Grey, anything is worth a try :)

I agree Kat, I remember thinking myself that it must have been Annie when I was given the 1911 census.

Unfortunately I don't have any more details from the 1911 than I posted. It's what I was given.

Have fun Herky :)

Just got back from the day out. Must get the tea now.

Katarzyna

20-04-11, 22:50

Anyone with subscription to 1911 census please who can look up this family? I have a few credits left but don't have sub.

(descendent of brother of Ann Sarah Gunnell)

Charles Gunnell b 1871 Nottinghill
Lizzie b 1874 London
John b 1899 London
Lizzie E b 1900 London

On 1901 census was living 14 Warrington Road, Kensington
RG13; Piece: 29; Folio: 88; Page: 31.
Thanks

herky

20-04-11, 23:19

Bit of a long shot and not any real help
but
there is a William Ham bc 1875 in London Middlesex in the 1901 census.
He is a soldier in the RHA in Dorset.

olga_b

20-04-11, 23:26

This is Gunnell-mistrans as Gunwell on census

GUNWELL, Charles Head Married
18 years M 40 1871 Clerk Carrier Notting Hill VIEW
GUNWELL, Lizzie Jane Wife Married
18 years F 37 1874 Kensal Green VIEW
GUNWELL, Lizzie Edith Daughter F 11 1900 School Kensal Green VIEW
GUNWELL, John James Son M 12 1899 School Notting Hill VIEW
GUNWELL, Lily Daughter F 9 1902 School North Kensington VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
7338 Reference:
RG14PN7338 RG78PN356 RD132 SD4 ED28 SN376

Registration District:
Edmonton Sub District:
East Tottenham Enumeration District:
28 Parish:
Tottenham

Address:
30 Collingwood Road County:
Middlesex

Katarzyna

21-04-11, 08:46

Thanks Olga, most kind.

This gives us another direct ancestor route forward.

Chrissie Smiff

21-04-11, 21:12

Thank you again everyone :)

It's so frustrating. All those trees on GR but nobody seems to have the right family. I'm looking into those Charles children though :)

margaretmarch

21-04-11, 22:11

sorry haven't been able to help today - away in Wales and hotel internet very unreliable along with fantastic weather so out and about. will keep a watch and help when I am next able.
Margaret

Katarzyna

21-04-11, 23:39

I have found William Ham ( as Ram) in 1891 in Fulham with son John b1878. The Annie (Wife)with him is born 1856 (Ann Sarah Gunnell was b1840) and there is a 2 yr old daughter, Annie. It looks as if William may have remarried.
Annie and daughter Annie were both born Earls Court. There is a marriage later in 1991 of William Ham to Annie Foster.

Katarzyna

21-04-11, 23:58

Another 1911 census required pretty please:)

William Ham b 1846 Acton/ East Worldham, Hampshire,
Annie Ham b 1856 Earls Court/ Kensington
Annie Ham b 1889 EarlsCourt/Kensington
Living Fulham on 1901
RG13; Piece: 62; Folio: 78; Page: 9.
It would be interesting to see how long Annie had been married.

Thanks,

Chrissie Smiff

22-04-11, 11:37

Sorry Kat, I didn't mention that was how I had come to the same conclusion. I didn't bother to go any further than looking for the children because Annie Fosters child wouldn't be the anything to do with Ann Sarag Gunnel. If you look at the time line I posted you will see the following -

Ann Sarah Ham died (Mother). Still to find death

William Ham marries Annie Foster 7th December 1891 St Cuthberts Kensington – aged 42 Widower

When I found that Ann Sarah Gunnell had married a Ham I thought it would be fairly easy. I didn't realise how common a name Ham was. If only they hadn't named two of them John and William :rolleyes:

herky

23-04-11, 11:14

Hi,
Martha Streams b 1895.
I think I have her death.
Could some nice person please add it to the tree for me as I don't know how to do it - but only if you agree it is the correct Martha.

Martha Streams - bc 1896 (remember she was a December birth so wouldn't have had her birthday yet), died 1st quarter 1915, Kensington, London, 1a, page 261

Sorry to have killed of another possible line, shame she died so young.

Apologies if this is old news.

herky

23-04-11, 12:45

How about these children for John Streams and Dorothy Hodgkins - again if you think it correct could someone add them for me (i would probably damage the tree).
(no wonder I couldn't find it at first, note the addition of an E to the name, dates are also good considering the parents married in 1931)

3 children b 1933, 1936, 1939 - all deleted by me as may be living - all go by the name STREAMES
What do you think??

EDIT - these may be living people so I have deleted - PM me if you want details.

Edit - I have also found these 3 childrens marriages - please don't tell me I am going along the wrong branch!!!! sometimes I get carried away!!

Chrissie Smiff

23-04-11, 23:08

Thank you again for all your hard work Herky but, the marriage was John H Streams and the most likely birth I found was just John. Mind you, the birth I found was in Fulham, I couldn't find one in Kensington. Also, his father died in 1906, so unless his wife was newly pregnant when he died I wondered if he could be the father? That's when I started to get confused.

It would be good to hear the thoughts of others?

herky

23-04-11, 23:12

Sorry - I was just going by the marriage details on the tree which said a John Streams had married a Dorothy Hodgkins and went along that line.
I now see that the father died well before the child - back to the drawing board!
Sorry for that.

Katarzyna

23-04-11, 23:16

Hi Herky,
These look good. I wonder if a mod could put this thread up on a secure forum so we could discuss this openly.
I will make the tree private on ancestry then I can add the names on there.
Can you pm me the other marriages please and I will put them up too.

But john could have been the son of her next husband Sayers. Named Streams as it looked better that way rather than calling him Sayers before they married|?

Chrissie Smiff

23-04-11, 23:19

What about the John H on marriage, not just John problem though Kat?

Katarzyna

23-04-11, 23:30

The birth for john is 1907

1907
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
DISTRICT: Fulham
COUNTY: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 174 (click to see

Father 's death registered in June1906 so with a late register of the death and late register of the birth it's quite possible for the father to have been Henry.

I agree the H for John is a problem.

Chrissie Smiff

23-04-11, 23:31

Yes Kat, thats the one I thought, but isn't the marriage that Herky mentioned for a John H Streams?

Chrissie Smiff

23-04-11, 23:35

I'm wondering if that marriage was John H Streams born 1903. It lookes as though he died as John Henry Streames in July 1988.

I can't find a death for a JOhn Streams/Streames born 1907 though.

herky

23-04-11, 23:37

Hi Herky,
These look good. I wonder if a mod could put this thread up on a secure forum so we could discuss this openly.
I will make the tree private on ancestry then I can add the names on there.
Can you pm me the other marriages please and I will put them up too.

Hi,
I am a bit confused and not sure if the marriage between Dorothy and John is going down the right line.
Chrissie has the father Harry as dying in 1906 and the child John on the tree is down as a birth for 1908. Is this a child from a second marriage??
I am happy to send you the marriage details I have found but admit to being a bit unsure now if I have become mixed up.
Help!!

I think the death for Martha Streams looks good - what do you think?

Chrissie Smiff

23-04-11, 23:43

Yes Herky, thank you, unfortunately I think the death for Martha is spot on :(

p.s. So does someone else, I just went in to add it and it's been done :)

Have to go now, bed calls. Thank you all again for your help, much appreciated :)

herky

23-04-11, 23:49

Yes - me too - my head is spinning.
I will pass on the 3 births to Kat anyway - just in case later on they turn up to be possible.

night night.

Katarzyna

24-04-11, 00:29

I agree re John H - looks like we are going down the wrong path Joyce. However will keep those records on tree just in case,

The John Streams born Fulham 1907. . . . . . .Cecilia may have been at her fathers in Fulham at the time of the birth. She could have been living there between the death of her husband Henry Streams and her marriage to John Sayers in 1909.

However, 1911 census gives b Hammersmith not Fulham ...... but her next husband John Sayer filled in the census form not Cecilia (Annie)

It might be worth requesting a look up in Electoral Rolls for those years for the adults in the household.

Have added the marriages to John Streams notes so they don't get lost Herky.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1911 census
RG14PN263 RG78PN8 RD3 SD2 ED37 SN521
79 Masbro Road Hammersmith W
Registration District:
Fulham

William Ham head married b 1846 Hampshire Woldham. Covenience Attendant (sic)
Annie Ham wife Married 22 years, b 1869 London Earls Court
John Ham single son b1877 London Hammersmith, Stableman

John Ham b1877needs following up. Couldn't find him on 1901 census
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address on 1901 census
William Ham and Annie
46 Archel Road Fulham (St Andrew )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Both the above roads exist today

herky

24-04-11, 09:30

This is probably me going off on one of my wild goose chases - but here goes----

JOHN HAM b c 1877
British Army Service Records - has a John Ham b 1877, joined up at the age of 39 and was awarded the military medal.
Father listed as William and down as next of kin so probably not married ( so maybe a dead end if he didn't have children!)
2 addresses noted on the records - 54 Hammersmith or could be Harmsworth Fulham and 18 ward???? EDIT Could be TAMWORTH
The records are in pretty bad shape-I will go back and look at them more carefully for clues.

Any thoughts on this one.
Thanks

Edit - Just to add that John is listed as a motor driver for occupation on the service record - he is a stableman in the 1911 census.
Would I be correct in thinking that Stable men would have progressed to Motor car drivers after cars became more common and horses were phased out? I have probably been watching too much "Upstairs Downstairs"

herky

24-04-11, 10:18

herky

24-04-11, 10:26

And now to Thomas Gunnell
National Probate Calender

Late of Old Brentford, died 10 Sept 1887, engine driver (occupation matched 1861 census).

Proved by Henry Boylett (same surname as his wife).

I know this doesn't get us anywhere but I just completes the picture for that person.

Now we know that he died in 1887 (could someone please check this info for me) I will have a look for 1871 and 1881 censuses for any clues on their family.

herky

24-04-11, 10:38

1871 Census, Distllery Road, Brentford.
Thomas Gunnell b 1815 (I think this is an error), Engine Driver, b Great Marlow
Cecilia Gunnell b c 1807, Brentford
Cecilia A Ham age 3 lodger, b Chiswick

1881 Census
Same address as 1871
Thomas (again is out on age)- bc 1818, engine driver
Cecilia bc 1808
Elizabeth Ham, granddaughter, b c 1870

darannon

24-04-11, 13:39

I am just back from holiday and have caught up on the thread - I'm so glad that ann gunnell from brentford turned out to be the right one. I will have a search through the leads later (after catching up on the washing!), but I did just want to say that all the areas mentioned are very close and often cross over - for instance hammersmith/fulham is actually counted as one area locally, and is known as the borough of hammersmith & fulham even today. And up until at least the 1960's brentford and acton were one urban council district. Chiswick is another very local area and has borders with all the above. Notting Hill and Kensington are also close, but a little further into (west) london. I don't know if that helps anyone searching (:

ps Isn't it a bit strange that the 3year old cecilia on the census is called a lodger?

Katarzyna

24-04-11, 17:34

This s me going backwards now - sorry - but this may be one of the family.
What so you think?

National Probate records.

Cecilia Gunnell, Wellington Cottage, Distillery Rd., Brentford.
Died 9 Sept 1889.
Mention of a son called John Thomas Gunnell, 56 Lattimer Road, Nottinghill.

Or have I lost the plot?

Cecililia Gunnell
born c1807
Year of Registration 1889 Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 82 Brentford Middlesex
Vol 3a 69 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=0&db=freebmddeath,&ti=5538&f6=69&f7=1889&f9=7&f5=3a)

This must be Cecilia Boylett .. Son John Thomas married Sophia Townsend

Will have a look after visitors have gone. Just having a sneaky ciggy here!

herky

24-04-11, 17:44

I think this Cecila is already on tree - Cecilia Boylett married to Thomas Gunnell................this is the couple that had Ann Sarah Gunnell bc 1840..........

Katarzyna

24-04-11, 17:51

Katarzyna

24-04-11, 18:15

Just looking forward :
1911 census
Reference:
RG14PN6974 RG78PN345 RD128 SD6 ED23 SN99
31 Beaconsfield Road Chiswick W, Acton

BRENNAN, Michael Head Married M 42 1869 Labourer Middlesex Chiswick
(http://www.findmypast.co.uk/CensusHouseholdSearchServlet?uir=c4f315e78b0264e14 6ac859bde86ff41&lineNo=1&lineNoSuffix=0&UIRStamp=5fb1b2393f3f1f3b96de603eaed6256feea0b491d b03610a58ec0160d6411bc75e5f8418f19b5123&pagetype=6#javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:showPhotoDjVuImage%28%271566a4300a3566d82d38d 6bae115234176b73541a864904d1636a01312e22490%27,%27 5fb1b2393f3f1f3b96de603eaed6256feea0b491db03610a58 ec0160d6411bc75e5f8418f19b5123%27,%271911%20Census %20%3Cbr%3EBRENNAN,%20Michael%3Cbr%3EBRENTFORD,%20 Middlesex%3Cbr%3EReference%20RG14PN6974%20RG78PN34 5%20RD128%20SD6%20ED23%20SN99%27,%20%27N%27,%20%27 H%27,%2769740197%27,%271%27,%270%27,0%29) BRENNAN, Elizabeth Wife Married 25 years F 42 1869 Laundry Hand Ironer Middlesex Chiswick
(http://www.findmypast.co.uk/CensusHouseholdSearchServlet?uir=c4f315e78b0264e14 6ac859bde86ff41&lineNo=1&lineNoSuffix=0&UIRStamp=5fb1b2393f3f1f3b96de603eaed6256feea0b491d b03610a58ec0160d6411bc75e5f8418f19b5123&pagetype=6#javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:showPhotoDjVuImage%28%271566a4300a3566d82d38d 6bae115234176b73541a864904d1636a01312e22490%27,%27 5fb1b2393f3f1f3b96de603eaed6256feea0b491db03610a58 ec0160d6411bc75e5f8418f19b5123%27,%271911%20Census %20%3Cbr%3EBRENNAN,%20Elizabeth%3Cbr%3EBRENTFORD,% 20Middlesex%3Cbr%3EReference%20RG14PN6974%20RG78PN 345%20RD128%20SD6%20ED23%20SN99%27,%20%27N%27,%20% 27H%27,%2769740197%27,%272%27,%270%27,0%29)BRENNAN , Emily daughter Single F 24 1887 Bar Maid London Nottinghill

Emily Brennan marriage? I can't find one to be sure.
(http://www.findmypast.co.uk/CensusHouseholdSearchServlet?uir=c4f315e78b0264e14 6ac859bde86ff41&lineNo=1&lineNoSuffix=0&UIRStamp=5fb1b2393f3f1f3b96de603eaed6256feea0b491d b03610a58ec0160d6411bc75e5f8418f19b5123&pagetype=6#javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:showPhotoDjVuImage%28%271566a4300a3566d82d38d 6bae115234176b73541a864904d1636a01312e22490%27,%27 5fb1b2393f3f1f3b96de603eaed6256feea0b491db03610a58 ec0160d6411bc75e5f8418f19b5123%27,%271911%20Census %20%3Cbr%3EBRENNAN,%20Emily%3Cbr%3EBRENTFORD,%20Mi ddlesex%3Cbr%3EReference%20RG14PN6974%20RG78PN345% 20RD128%20SD6%20ED23%20SN99%27,%20%27N%27,%20%27H% 27,%2769740197%27,%273%27,%270%27,0%29)

Katarzyna

24-04-11, 18:47

Death :
William Ham

Hammersmith
Apr May Jun 1931
1a 216
age 85

Katarzyna

24-04-11, 19:02

All probate records, censuses and Army record from Herky have been added to the tree as notes.

Visitors back from walk, must go!.

herky

24-04-11, 19:37

Many thanks Kat.
Thanks for sorting out the difference in birth dates.
herky

Katarzyna

25-04-11, 00:12

We now have several 1911 censuses on the tree and several names of those that might be living ie possible Streames which I have put in as notes. Notes can only be viewed by those invited to the tree so they are safe from public view. There are a few other lines that could move forward.

Where do you want to go with this now Chrissie? Our only way forward is from Electoral Rolls etc. We are going to need some more help here as I certainly won't have access to them from where I live.:)

Katarzyna

25-04-11, 02:10

Just found these on LMA Baptisms

Lilian Streams 18 Dec 1892 Henry Streams,Cecilia Ann Ham Notting Hill St Clement Kensington and Chelsea****
Martha Elizabeth Streams 31 Dec 1895 Henry Streams,Cecilia Streams Notting Hill All Saints Kensington and Chelsea
Louisa Streams 23 Jan 1897 Henry Streams,Cecilia Streams Notting Hill All Saints Kensington and Chelsea
William Henry Streams 25 May 1899 Henry Streams,Cecilia Streams Notting Hill All Saints Kensington and Chelsea
Emma Amelia Streams 25 Sep 1900 Henry Streams,Cecilia Streams Notting Hill All Saints Kensington and Chelsea
Mary Streams 30 May 1903 Henry Streams,Cecilia Streams Notting Hill All Saints Kensington and Chelsea
Rose Elizabeth Streames 19 Oct 1906 Henry Streames,Cecilia Streames Holy Trinity Kensington and Chelsea

Cannot find baps for Annie and John tho.

From LMA Marriages

Name: ****Lilian Streames
Spouse: Henry Walter Stannard
Father: Henry Streames
Birth: abt 1892
Marriage: 28 Apr 1918 -
Hammersmith and Fulham, London

woo hooo!!!
Look like we are getting somewhere.Fingers crossed she has children!!!
If we find children for this marriage then pm's only as they could possibly be living.
Off to bed :)

Katarzyna

25-04-11, 03:29

I couldn't sleep lol.
She has 10 children including a Cecilla!!

See Lillian Streams on tree.
On OVERVIEW in Media Gallery - Click on "Story "

herky

25-04-11, 08:30

Wow! - you have been busy - well done.
I won't have much time until tonight to have a proper look but will have a wee peek to see what I can find.

herky

25-04-11, 08:35

Oh - looks like 9 children - I see now where I have missed one - the spelling of Streams/Streames - so now I have 10 children
Obviously all have the potential to be living so I will not give names here.

oopps Kat - you already did this, sorry -just had a look on the tree, some quite good names and lots of middle initials which will help.

Chrissie Smiff

25-04-11, 10:20

Oh WOW, I can't thank you enough. To be honest, my head is in a spin.

I am going to have to take stock and start looking for possible living relatives.

I have absolutely no idea Kat about electoral rolls, apart from the recent ones, where we have an ally on here :) As soon as we feel fairly confident that we have a descendant living I shall ask her if she would be kind enough to look for an address.

I shall go and have a look at the tree on Ancestry and see what I can find from there.

I am feeling very guilty as we have been so busy that I haven't been pulling my weight. I shall try in the next couple of days to put that right.

I REALLY do appreciate all you have done.

darannon

25-04-11, 10:23

Thanks for the invite to the tree, I have been on this morning, the only new thing I've found so far is michael brennan in 1871, which I think I added correctly - but then I tried to add his parents and now I'm not sure if I've mistakenly given him two fathers - sorry - can someone else check it please, it should be dennis brennan, born in ireland, thanks
Darannon

Chrissie Smiff

25-04-11, 11:04

Thank you Darannon. I have just checked and it looks ok. So either you did it right or someone has beaten me to it again :)

Chrissie Smiff

25-04-11, 11:35

Now sorted and message sent thank you :)

I need a bit of help out of my confusion please :)

I have found someone on GR who has <possible living person removed> born 1937 in North Kennsington in their tree. She is a Worley.
I want to contact her but my head is in a spin as to who exactly were Cecelia's (must just be a mispelling by the lady on GR) Parents please? And what relationship to Ann Sarah Gunnel would Cecelia/Cecilia be?

Chrissie Smiff

25-04-11, 11:38

Katarzyna

25-04-11, 13:37

Ann Sarah Gunnell 1840 >> Cecilia Ann Ham (Annie) 1868 >> Lilian Streams 1892 >> daughter C.A.S born 1837 marries F.A.W 1956. So C.A.S would be Ann Sara Gunnell's great granddaughter,.

CHRISSIE can you alter your living relative to CAS b 1837 in post 115.

edit : Grimsqueaker has kindly changed this for us.

Katarzyna

25-04-11, 13:52

Someone was saying that we can't find John Ham born 1877 in Kensington in 1901. I know this one says born c1875 but isn't it him? Father John born Kensington, mother Annie born Ireland. Who is he axactly :confused::o

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7814&iid=LNDRG13_286_287-0103&fn=John&ln=Ham&st=r&ssrc=&pid=2691319

I found John on 1911 census. he is single and with his parents. He is a stableman.
On the 1901 census in Bethnal Green he is listed as photo painter??

Have you looked at the "stories" on the tree. I have listed everyone we have found on the 1911 census there.

You can leave messages on the stories by editing them. that way we can keep all the info together. Just leave a note on here to say another story has been added :)

Chrissie Smiff

25-04-11, 16:59

Oops, sorry about the possible living person Kat, and than you Tim :)
It's easy to get carried away and I can't find a death for her.

So the person I found on GR is possibly Ann Sarah Gunnell's Gt Gt Grandaughter and her Gt grandaughter is also likely to be still alive. Oh I do hope she gets back to me. I shall try and find some more connections too, now we have plenty of names to go at.

Katarzyna

25-04-11, 20:41

Lets hope that she is directly related to CAS and that CAS is not just a "married in" to her tree. Would be lovely to get something positive out of this.

Katarzyna

25-04-11, 22:26

I have found 4 possible children for CAS and FAW - all have Stannard as mmn. born '50's and 60's.. As far as we know CAS is still living too. I have made CAS home person in the tree so you can always get back to her by hovering over the "find a person in this tree" and click on Home Person.. The details of the children are on a story assigned to CAS 's Profile page.

herky

25-04-11, 23:18

It is looking good isn't it?:good:
Good names again for searching.
Sorry I haven't been much help - busy week at work.:(

Tralena

26-04-11, 01:33

This has been so interesting..... fingers crossed you get a reply from GR.

I'd be over the moon if some one had found a letter written by my ancestor.

Tralena

Chrissie Smiff

26-04-11, 10:20

I have just checked and the lady I contacted on GR married GJW in 1996. GJW is the son born in 1968 to CAS and FAW.

All these initials and subterfuge is making me feel like a spy :rotfl::rotfl:

margaretmarch

26-04-11, 10:38

You could be - you're doing it so well! :) :D
Margaret

Chrissie Smiff

26-04-11, 10:44

Not without a lot of help from several other spies Margaret :rotfl::rotfl:
Hope non of them are double agents :rotfl::rotfl:

margaretmarch

26-04-11, 10:52

Oh Heck! that's a thought. :)
Margaret

Chrissie Smiff

26-04-11, 12:51

Is it possible for me to edit your time line Kat in the story on the CAS FAW section. Or do I have to just keep adding comments below? I am finding marriages for the 4 children and messaging several of the children on GR.

Katarzyna

26-04-11, 15:35

There is an edit button on right hand side Chrissie. Don't forget to save afterwards- at the bottom.

Chrissie Smiff

26-04-11, 16:13

Thank you Kat :)

Sorry Kat but can you tell me something else please. I was halfway through typing in a story (marriages/births of living people) under George Edward Stannard born 1950 Hammersmith, died 1975. Son of Lilian Streams and George Edward Stannard. Before I press send it wants me to tick the terms and conditions etc but it seems to give the idea that this information will be viewable by everyone :confused: I know you said that you had added a story because it would be private, so do I need to do something to make sure that it's private before I add it :o
I found a couple of his likely children on GR.

herky

26-04-11, 17:05

I have just checked and the lady I contacted on GR married GJW in 1996. GJW is the son born in 1968 to CAS and FAW.

All these initials and subterfuge is making me feel like a spy :rotfl::rotfl:

It's getting close now Chrissie. I hope the tree owner on GR is one who looks at the mail frequently. Have you noticed if she has opened the mail you sent? I am very impatient:nailbiting:

It is very exciting - I think I could do with something to calm my excitement - perhaps a martini, shaken not stirred!!!!!;D

Katarzyna

26-04-11, 19:43

No probs, just go to Add New story, then - I want to write a story.

The privacy of your stories is always protected. Remember: Only people authorized to view your family tree will be able to see attached stories

Chrissie Smiff

26-04-11, 19:52

Thank you Kat :) I shall have to go and find out all the details again now :rotfl:

It's getting close now Chrissie. I hope the tree owner on GR is one who looks at the mail frequently. Have you noticed if she has opened the mail you sent? I am very impatient:nailbiting:

It is very exciting - I think I could do with something to calm my excitement - perhaps a martini, shaken not stirred!!!!!;D

She hasn't looked yet Herky. Mind you, neither have the other 4 that I sent messages to this afternoon :rotfl:
LOL - so you are feeling like a spy too :rotfl:

herky

26-04-11, 20:16

Yes, in a way, I think when the subject of the research is so recent and still living it seems like we are being private detectives and not genealogist - he he!
I just hope he/she will be over the moon when they find out about this amazing letter that is about 150 years old.
It is a waiting game now - I am sure as soon as they open your mail they will get right back to you.
Fingers crossed.

Chrissie Smiff

26-04-11, 20:19

Thank you herky :) I'm determined that it is only going to someone who is as enthusiastic about these things as we all are.

greyingrey

27-04-11, 16:51

I think you're all fantastic

Chrissie Smiff

28-04-11, 20:37

Still sending messages to likely connections :) Still waiting for at least one of them to open the message :(

herky

28-04-11, 20:49

Hi Chrissie,
I have been on and off this site all day - hoping that you would have some news.
Oh how frustrating for you and all of us:(

Perhaps tomorrow will be a better day - everyone at home for the royal wedding and time to check mail:)

Fingers crossed.

Chrissie Smiff

29-04-11, 15:57

I never give up Herky :) I once had a reply from someone almost a year after I sent it :D

herky

29-04-11, 16:13

I have some spare time just now - is there anyone else, from this family, that you would like researched - just in case this is a dead end??
I will have a look at the tree but I am not sure where we are at as I have been unable to do much lately.

greyingrey

29-04-11, 21:28

There are still quite a lot of people away as part of the Easter holidays....I think particularly retired people who were visiting younger relatives stayed on to watch the royal wedding together

Katarzyna

30-04-11, 08:30

We could look for Emily Brennan b 1887 Notting Hill (http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/26631370/person/1885863894/fact/15972706096)

(http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/26631370/person/1885863894/fact/15972706096)
(http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/26631370/person/1885863894/fact/15972706096)1911 Census (http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/26631370/person/1885863894/fact/15972706096) living 31 Beaconsfield Road Chiswick W, Acton

RG14PN6974 RG78PN345 RD128 SD6 ED23 SN99

She is a grand daughter of Ann Sarah Gunnell

herky

30-04-11, 10:35

oh dear ............. not having much success with Emily...............

Chrissie Smiff

30-04-11, 11:02

She was one of the first people I concentrated on but unfortunately I couldn't find a death or marriage that really fit. That's when I went on to another branch.

p.s. There were possible deaths in other parts of the country but no way of knowing if they were her. I also though that if she had never married I wouldn't find a descendant.

herky

30-04-11, 11:49

I agree - lots of possibles but no one that really sticks out.
I even had a look at some Canadian and US records.

Have you looked at DAS b1936 and his line?
The only likely marriage for that produced no children that I can see.
There is another marriage but it is so much later on that it could be another generation of a very late marriage (the groom would have been approaching 60).
However I haven't found his death so if he is still living he would be of interest as a grandson.
I don't seem to be getting anywhere!!

Chrissie Smiff

30-04-11, 12:04

Thank you for looking at those Canadian and US records Kerky. I had wondered whether any of them emigrated. I bet if we found one 'acrss the pond' they would be as fascinated as we are.

It's all very confusing Herky with all these initials. I think I can safely mention surnames though? As a lot of them are dead. I have sent messages to people who are connected through Worley and Stannard. Most I have had to work out from more recent marriages etc but one I believe is the man himself. He is a DGHS (born 1951)mmn Hearne - does that help ?

Chrissie Smiff

30-04-11, 12:11

p.s. I've just checked and I think I can tell you this because it's about a deceased person. The living one I mentioned above is (I believe) a son of George E Stannard born 1926 - died 1975.

herky

30-04-11, 12:22

My one was the son of H W Stannard and L Streames.

Chrissie Smiff

30-04-11, 12:48

I've just been checking Herky and do you know, he MAY be a twin. There is a DAS and a DJS both born in the same quarter of Kensington and both have the same ref number. The DAS has mmn Streames and the DJS has the mmn Streemes. I wonder if it was just a mistranscription on that one?
p.s. Just checked and it is an Ancestry mistranscription. The page has them BOTH as mmn Streames - so TWINS!

Chrissie Smiff

30-04-11, 12:58

Thank you Herky :) I have just realised that I had missed checking for DAS and have now contacted 'him'? :)
p.s. Nobody seems to have listed DJS but I can't find a death for him.

herky

30-04-11, 13:42

Unfortunately there are quite a few DJ S marriages that are possible.
No sign of a death though, as you say.

Katarzyna

30-04-11, 20:07

Hi Chrissy
Can you add a story to the tree where you can write out their full names. The tree is private so you can add the real names on there now. Then we will know who we are looking for :)

Katarzyna

30-04-11, 22:10

Have added spouses for Rose Stannard 1929 and Jack Stannard 1923 and other siblings who have living descendents.
These are from a tree on Ancestry and the home person is a living Marriner descended from Jack William Stannard. I have put his contact details on a story for Jack Stannard. Henry Streams 1869 is his 2nd Gt Grandfather. He does not go back any further and does not have Henry's spouse Cecilia Ham. However he has many of the Stannard living rellies on there.

Chrissie Smiff

30-04-11, 22:50

I'm a bit confused Kat :confused:
I thought that you were saying I could add the names now as the tree was now private but I see that you still have the ones you have added as Living. Can I put their names please or not?

Also, I haven't found the tree yet that you mention but have you contacted them or do you want me to do it?

Katarzyna

01-05-11, 00:30

I have put 'living' for the ones I have found because the tree that I have says living Marriner to living Stannard. I have not yet got round to finding out who they all are thro the birth indexes. I will when I have time.

I don't know who DA and DJ Stannard are as I didn't put them in. You can add their names.

Been having a look see and found some more names. have added them to the tree.:
I have made the contact guy the home person so you can "view his family tree" from his profile page. You can then follow his wife Brenda back to her great grandfather, Henry Streams and hence to Ann Sarah Gunnell. So it is not him after all. SHE is the descendent of Ann Sarah, I thought it might have been their son that was the contact.

I hope you are following me,LOL you will see what I mean by going to home person. this is so difficult to explain without being able to write the living names. No wonder we are all confused on here! .

Sorry Chrissie I thought you would be able to find the tree from the username I put in the story.

I have pm'd you with the link to the tree I found.
I will leave it to you to contact him - it will be his wife who is the direct descendent..

:)

Chrissie Smiff

01-05-11, 09:42

Sorry Kat - it's me being dense :o
I understand now and will contact him. I will also add those names.

Chrissie Smiff

01-05-11, 11:07

I have added the names but I am just a bit concerned about the marriage details etc for the possible contact on Ancestry.
I suppose he has got the details right - i.e marriage, children etc?
Our chap, and his, was born (now deceased) as Jack W Stannard in1923 and died as such. However, the marriage he has was in the name John W Stannard. I have come across John's being called Jack before, but not Jacks' marrying as John and dying as Jack :confused:

Do you think it's safe to assume that he has researched properly?

I've just been looking again and it does appear to be the right one. He and his wife both died in Kings lynn. I wonder why he married as John ?

Chrissie Smiff

01-05-11, 11:28

I have now contacted him through Ancestry. I also found him on GR and have contacted him there as well. I thought I would hedge our bets :D

herky

01-05-11, 11:38

Good luck Chrissie - let's hope you get at least one reply soon.

Chrissie Smiff

01-05-11, 11:47

Than you Herky - here's hoping:)
I'm still searching for more though. I'm determined to find sombody who is REALLY keen.
The worrying thing is that I haven't found anyone yet who has researched hard enough to have Ann Sarah Gunnel in their tree. Well, only people who are connected through a different branch :(

herky

01-05-11, 12:12

Yes - that is a worry - if they haven't got that far back then I guess you are wondering why.
Another thing I find on my tree - I may find lots of people with the same family - but all with the same error.
This may suggest that it is not a serious researcher but someone who copies a tree.
The other thing to bear in mind is some serious researchers do not have public trees.
Most of mine are Scots and I have certs for all as evidence. I don't however have a public tree.

Perhaps even someone who is not a family historian would take this letter very seriously.

I have tried to google many of the names as they come up but nothing jumps out.

Gave you tried Rootweb? - there are many trees there ....off to look..... a quick look doesn't reveal anything to Ann Sarah, there is a James Boylett bc1780 Chertsy, married to Ann, But that is going in the wrong direction!!

Chrissie Smiff

01-05-11, 12:14

I did have a search on Rootsweb Kerky when someone else suggested it. Like you though I didn't find anything.

Chrissie Smiff

01-05-11, 17:07

Just popped on to give you wonderful helpers a quick update.
I have heard from 'Ken' on Ancestry and he has given me his e-mail addy for my reply. Reply is now winging it's way to him :) You were right about the connection Kat, as long as we have got it right from Ann Sarah Gunnell up to the bit he knew anyway :D

Will let you know when I get a repy to my e-mail :)

margaretmarch

01-05-11, 17:25

Great news Chrissie! good luck in finding THE person who will appreciate the letter.
Margaret

herky

01-05-11, 17:41

Oh wow - great news.
I can't wait to find out more.

Chrissie Smiff

01-05-11, 19:08

Thank you Margaret and Herky :)

Geting excited now waiting for a reply to my e-mail :D

greyingrey

01-05-11, 19:12

Well done Chrissie & everyone.

Katarzyna

01-05-11, 21:14

Oh wow chrissie, he came thro quickly! Great news.
Maybe he couldn't get back any further than Henry because he couldn't find a marriage to an Annie as Cecilia was calling herself on the censuses.

This tree is the Contacts wife's tree. I think he is quite serious about his own tree as it goes back to a rellie born 10 Feb 1749

jadzia

01-05-11, 21:19

Great news.....Well done all

:)

darannon

01-05-11, 22:31

that's great news and i hope you hear back from him again quickly - your search has been moving so fast that I haven't found anything new for days, but I am reading the thread every day to keep up with it all - well done (:

Chrissie Smiff

01-05-11, 22:39

Hi Kat - yes, it is his wife's line. He gave me the names of the other children so I have added a couple of second names and one completely new one. Still no reply to my e-mail but hoping I shall get one tomorrow. Thank you again - you're help has been invaluable :)

Thank you Grey, Ness and Darannon :)

I still keep having a look for more. The first reply to be excited by the thought of a letter will get it, but if there are anymore direct ancestors who would like it I can e-mail a copy.

Katarzyna

01-05-11, 23:04

You're welcome Chrissie. Always enjoy the chase!
Good idea to keep a copy so you can pass it on should anyone contact you later.

I will download the gedcom for you sometime ie when we run out of people to find. You can pass that on too.

Chrissie Smiff

02-05-11, 09:44

Oh wow Kat, thank you - that would be brilliant:)

Chrissie Smiff

03-05-11, 11:23

It would appear that it's back to the drawing board guys and gals :)
'Ken's' wife isn't particularly interested in her family tree. It's Ken who is the researcher mainly for himself.
I have e-mailed him back to ask whether any of her sisters or brothers are keen but, failing that, I think I may need to look at other branches.

greyingrey

03-05-11, 11:34

How can you NOT be interested ???? I realise that not everyone may not be interested in doing the research or whether the 4th cousin ten times removed was a bricklayer, but when you have something like this served up to you on a plate.......well, I guess people would say the same about their hobbies I'm not interested in.

Better than handing it over to someone who is only feigning interest to be polite

Chrissie Smiff

03-05-11, 11:41

Exactly Grey :) I explained in my first e-mail that I wanted it to go to someone who would treasure it and I appreciated him being honest in a very gently way.

We would all find it hard to understand, but that's because we have the 'bug'. When I told my hubby that we probably shouldn't be named Smith at all but Preston I thought he would be REALLY interested. His children were but he just took it very casually :)

herky

03-05-11, 13:27

Oh what a shame.:(
As you say, back to the drawing board.
Can you say where we should focus.
I haven't contributed much lately due to work and home commitments and have lost track of things.
I have a few days off this week so happy to muck in - just give me some pointers of where to start and I will happily have a look.:)

Now - I wonder if there is any chance I could be related as I would certainly treasure it - only joking as none of these names feature in my tree, pity!

Chrissie Smiff

03-05-11, 14:41

Thank you Herky :) The only thing I can suggest is what I'm trying to do. I'm looking at all the children of Ann Sarah Gunnell and trying to follow any of them as far as I can. Only if I feel that I'm reasonably confident it's the right one though. Any that I don't feel too confident about I am trying to cross check with people who have them in their tree on GR and then checking to see if they have any of the names/dates that we know for a fact.

Katarzyna

03-05-11, 20:40

**sigh**
Tell him I was up til 2 in the morning when I had got a sniff of him pmsl. How can they not be excited? Just send him a photocopy if he comes back lol.

Chrissie Smiff

04-05-11, 12:21

:DKat

Better news this morning. I have just had another e-mail. He apologises for not replying sooner but he has been busy contacting the other Gt Gt grandchildren. He says that so far they have ALL been interested in either having the letter or a photocopy. There is one Gt grandaughter still alive but she unfortunately has Alzheimer’s He says he still has a few more to contact and will get back to me :)

margaretmarch

04-05-11, 13:45

herky

04-05-11, 14:18

Good news - the fact that he is talking about it to others in the family makes him sound seriously interested.
I hope it turns out well for you.

This morning I have done some searching but coming up with nothing.

Chrissie Smiff

04-05-11, 15:23

Thanks again everyone for your interest. It really is appreciated.

I think the trouble is Herky that a couple of them have quite common Christian names and so it's difficult to know if it's 'right' marriage/death etc.

Chrissie Smiff

05-05-11, 10:37

Just to update everyone. Another message has been opened on GR, no reply as yet though. It is a living Gt Grandson of Ann Sarah (D J Stan....) :)

herky

05-05-11, 10:55

Thanks for the update Chrissie.

Chrissie Smiff

08-05-11, 10:33

I've got a busy day ahead but just popped on to say thank you to whoever added the Bagshaw connection in the tree. I have contacted one of the children on GR and have also found her sister on there, who I shall contact later :)

Katarzyna

09-05-11, 07:20

It was me Chrissie, sorry I thought I had put it on here for you.
I wish I could find as many family connections on line as this family have :)
Pity none of them have their tree fully back to Ann Sarah tho'.

Chrissie Smiff

09-05-11, 11:10

It's ok Kat, I get the e-mail from Ancestry whenever the tree is updated :)

That seems to be the problem on all the branches with these descendants Kat. Loads of them have trees but non go back to Ann Sarah Gunnel.
I messaged all the people on GR who had Ann Sarah in their tree. I have only had 2 replies so far but they were both only vaguely related to William Ham by a side shoot.

Still waiting for a reply from 'Ken'. I think I will e-mail him again.

The letter is getting quite famous in our circle of friends. I hadn't mentioned it to our best friends, but last night they came round for the evening and wanted to know all about it, as they had been told about it on the grapevine and were fascinated :D Another friend who loves all things theatrical rang up to tell us that she had heard about it and said it should be made into a play :D

kathyhpink

09-05-11, 22:38

Oh, thank you Mike - you beat me to it :)
Can anyone tell me please how close Lambeth is to Chiswick and Acton?

If it's herit doesn't look as though she ever married or ever got together with William. Her descendants would be hard to find too.

Lambeth (where I grew up) is in south London and Chiswick is west London. They're a good distance apart.

Chrissie Smiff

10-05-11, 09:22

Thank you Kathy :)

herky

26-05-11, 11:14

Hi Chrissie,
How are you getting on with this mystery?

Have you had any more replies from possible descendants of the owners of the letter yet?

Chrissie Smiff

26-05-11, 11:44

Hi Herky

Nothing much new I'm afraid. I have sent a photocopy to 'Ken' as several of his wife's siblings were a 'little' interested. I am still looking for someone as keen as we would be though to send the actual letter to.

It's funny you should ask today as I have spent some time the last few days trying to find members of another branch who may be interested. I keep cross checking on GR as I thought that anyone I found on there would be thrilled. After all, they are obviously doing their tree. It hasn't worked out that way yet though :(

Thank you for asking :)

greyingrey

26-05-11, 12:09

Chrissie.....you will crack it. Maybe some people are a little afraid (they've probably read your other posts), but I'm sure you'll wheedle the right person out in time.

Chrissie Smiff

26-05-11, 15:54

Chrissie.....you will crack it. Maybe some people are a little afraid (they've probably read your other posts), but I'm sure you'll wheedle the right person out in time.

LOL Grey, whatever could you mean :rotfl:

greyingrey

26-05-11, 16:39

Despite the joke (?), it is true. Even with those who are used to posting on family history, if someone contacts you out of the blue, you're probably a little cautious

Chrissie Smiff

27-05-11, 09:06

I have wondered the same thing myself Grey. Possibly because I was wary of telling them why i.e. mentioning the letter. Perhaps I should contact them again and tell them about the letter. On second thoughts, only one of the messages has been opened anyway, so it can't be that :confused:

Vivienne

27-05-11, 09:44

Chrissie, just because they are registered on GR doesn't mean they are doing their tree! A few years ago GR was putting a link on FR & my son filled it in, he is still registered on there but he is not interested in the tree & has never even looked on GR!

Chrissie Smiff

27-05-11, 09:47

I realise that of course Viv, but I have had so many successful replies to my own tree that the ratio of people not opening these yet seemed rather high. I shall just have to keep finding others from different branches until I find one.

greyingrey

27-05-11, 10:23

I've only had 3 or 4 contacts via GR, but I'd say only one was interested in the family tree....the rest were curious to find out relatives in their area/find out what they were doing/looking for friendship without being interested in family history.

Chrissie Smiff

27-05-11, 17:09

I've had loads in my own family Grey who are doing their family tree, must be at least 20 to 30 good ones. I have sent some photos and stories that I can remember from my childhood about their close ancestors and we have exchanged information freely. It's been great. Just a pity that I can't find someone, even one, like that for Ann.

herky

27-05-11, 17:26

Yes, it does seem strange.
I assume that you would like the letter to go to a direct descendant. You would have thought some one in a middle age group - say 40 - 70 years would really value family and treasure a hand written letter by an ancestor. Perhaps these people exist but are not necessarily family historians.
I can't think of another route you could take to trace someone.
Well, apart from taking it to the newspapers. It is a pity the family were from London and not a small village or town with a local newspaper that could run the story and create a little interest. But then again, perhaps that would be too public and not a route you want to take.