Aussie research help needed please

[Val and George]

I have a letter dated 1891 from an A.Newman - I think he is Alfred, who mentions that he is married and has a small daughter named Nelly after her aunt (Ellen back in England).
His wife is an Australian whose father owns several houses - he doesn't mention where.

At the time of writing he is living in Sydney and works for the government - I don't know in what capacity though. He talks about originally having done some gold fossicking with little success.

I have had no luck trying to track down his marriage in NSW online and wondered if anyone could help. I haven't much experience in researching in Oz, so any help and direction would be much appreciated. I guess he could have been married in another state but I couldn't seem to get onto the Qld marriages online. Thankyou:o

[Sunny Kate]

Val, do you have the area where he is living in Sydney?

It might be possible to track him down via the Sands Directories if I have an area. Just had a quick look and there are quite a few listed for that time period.

Sometimes on NSW BDMs the slightest variation in spelling of a name can occur - depends on who wrote the information and how good their hand.

[Mary from Italy]

You should be able to access Qld BDMs here:

https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/BirIndexQry.m

[Mary from Italy]

I wonder if this NSW birth might be relevant?

2836/1890 / NEWMAN ELLEN F / THOMAS A / MARTHA M / SYDNEY

This looks like the corresponding marriage:

1029/1890 / NEWMAN THOMAS A / BAKER MARTHA M / SYDNEY

[Sunny Kate]

There's an Alfred C.B. Newman married Minnie Feather at Glebe, Sydney in 1888.
Is that too early?

There's also an Alfred Newman, district registrar, living at Brown Street, Newtown in 1891?

[Mary from Italy]

That looks like the one, but the daughter was born in 1892, whereas the letter was dated 1891:

11065/1892 / NEWMAN NELLIE B / ALFRED C B / MINNIE C / COOMA

[Mary from Italy]

If it's the right person, this is probably his birth and death (in NSW):

Birth:

5461/1866 / NEWMAN ALFRED C B / ALFRED / MARY S / BATHURST

Death:

11804/1948 / NEWMAN ALFRED CHARLES BRUCE / ALFRED / MARY SARAH / BELLINGEN

[Mary from Italy]

Alfred Charles Bruce Newman is on the electoral rolls from 1930-1943, living in Dorrigo. His occupation is always given as "clerk".

Nellie's wedding notice:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/28108898?searchTerm=%22ALFRED%20c%20b%20%20newman% 22&searchLimits=

Dorrigo's a long way from Sydney, though.

[Mary from Italy]

Do we know if the Alfred from the letter was born in Australia, or was Ellen in England his sister?

[Sunny Kate]

Oops, missed him. There was also an Alfred Newman shown at 4 Mt Vernon Street, Glebe in 1891.

[Mary from Italy]

None of the Alfred Newmans in the Sydney area seem to have a daughter Ellen/Nellie, though, apart from Alfred CB and Thomas A (who may not have been an Alfred). I wonder if Nellie could have been born in England?

[Val and George]

Ooh back again - sorry folks but you won't believe this - we are having a baby.................no well I'm not, but the DiL is and the three grandaughters have just been dropped off to our house for the night.............so might not be around quite as much as I thought I would be on this wet sunday.

Right - what I do know is that Alfred Newman was born to Ellen Newman c.1859 in Walthamstowe London according to the 1871 census where I found him living with his mother who was then married to Robert Hatcher. It doesn't say that he was Robert's stepson but I am assuming he was as he seemed to keep his mother's maiden name when he came to Oz although he adopted Roberts surname on the census. I know I shouldn't assume - but in the letter to his brother whom he doesn't name he mentions another brother George who was a butcher and a sister named Nelly who was a cook - Nelly is thenick name given to the 'Ellen's' born in the Newman family. Ellen Hatcher worked as a servant - so, maybe a cook.

I am wondering if the Alfred and Minnie are the right combination - if so would we be able to find out if Minnie Feather's father owned property.

Would it be easier if I put the whole contents of the letter up for you to look at? It is six pages but seems to contain little bits of information that could all help.
The address he gives to his brother is Mr A Newman c/- General Post Office Sydney Australia - which seems like a not very permanent address, and he may have only been in Sydney for his job.

As you can imagine I may be slightly diverted with all the grandaughters - but if I have a free couple of minutes this evening I will type up the letter for you to read for yourselves. Many thanks for all the suggestions so far......:D

[Mary from Italy]

Do you think the date on the letter may be wrong, then?

This is Minnie's death:

7116/1947 / NEWMAN MINNIE CORA / THOMAS / JEMIMA / BELLINGEN

There's no likely birth in NSW, which again contradicts the letter.

Can't find her parents' marriage in England, but this is their emigration in 1882 with Minnie and various other children, showing Thomas's occupation as cabinet maker:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1204&iid=IMAUS1787_081412-0142&fn=Thomas&ln=Feather&st=d&ssrc=&pid=227912

[Mary from Italy]

The marriage notice for Alfred and Minnie gives her parents' address, if you can decipher it:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13697930?searchTerm=%22thomas%20feather%22&searchLimits=

The age of this Thomas Feather matches the one in the passenger list:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15984576?searchTerm=%22thomas%20feather%22&searchLimits=

You could now try searching the Trove site to see what else you can find about Thomas.

[Mary from Italy]

No wonder I couldn't find Minnie's birth - according to the 1881 census she was born in Canada.

Here's the marriage of Thomas Feather and Jemima Atkinson in Quebec:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=drouinvitals&so=2&rank=0&gsfn=thomas&gsln=feather&sx=&gs1co=3243%2cCanada&gs1pl=1%2cAll+Provinces&year=&yearend=&sbo=1&sbor=&ufr=0&wp=4%3b_80000002%3b_80000003&srchb=r&prox=1&db=&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-b&o_iid=21417&o_lid=21417&offerid=0%3a21318%3a0

Thomas was a Wesleyan minister at the time of the marriage, and the one who died in NSW in 1922 was a Methodist preacher, so it looks like the same person.

[Mary from Italy]

The NSW State Archives has some land records, but I haven't found anything for Thomas:

http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx

[Sunny Kate]

Val, found Thomas in Sands Directory and addresses tie in with what Mary found in Trove. He was a sewing machine agent later sewing machine importer. No time to give the sources now but will catch up tomorrow.

Hope all is well with DIL and new bub!

[Val and George]

Thanks folks - grandchildren in bed so I have time to read back through all your answers. No baby yet - I don't think things will happen until the middle of the night at least.
Sorry folks but I had the date a year out - it was written in 1890 which rules out Alfred and Minnie - bother..........

I am also going to add the letter for you - it might help clarify things - I copied it verbatim - very interesting for us Aussies seeing as how the present flooding here is almost a carbon copy of how it was then.
Sydney Nov 20 1890
Dear Brother,
I received your kind and welcome letter from mr Short no doubt mother and all of you give it up of ever knowing that I was alive or not, but by a streak of luck I am alive and well although I had a very near escape of turning up my toes last June. I went from sydney up the country for government at a tremendous great flood 300 miles under water such a sight I never saw before in my life it was in Bourke 500 miles from Sydney I was only 4 days there were 4000 homeless in Bourke before I was taken bad with Plurecy and by the time I arrived back in sydney I was nearly gone. I was in the hospital 5 weeks and it was another 3 weeks before I was able to tackle work and then when I had been at work a few weeks we struck work for more money and we struck out three months and we were beaten although our leaders proving trators to us so we have now got to go to work on the same pay as we came out for there was 30,000 of us in the colonies on strike. Our pay is 1.0 per hour we struck for 1.3 per hour and 1.9 per hour for overtime and we lost so we have to work for ten hours a day for 10.. No doubt you think you wish you had as much as that but we think that not enough in a grand country like this. if ever I was to make a rise to come home i would not stop at home after being out here so long I like this country. You tell me that George is at the bakeing in Kingsland if I was him I would make for out here and he would get 2.10.0 per week at it here
There is about 250 shops in sydney bakers and there is a population of 300,000 people, not a small place. I can tell you George could easy get a job assistant baker aboard some of the boats comming out here or come out Emigrant to Queensland or Western Australia then he could easy get to Sydney and he could come and live with me for a month or two till I got him a job. I say there is not a better country under the sun than this country is if I had not speculated I would have had about 400 pounds by now but I had bad luck in prospecting for gold. I have often been sorry I did not send you a few pounds since I have been out here but I was so interested in gold mineing that I thought I would be able to make a big hawl but I was not my luck dear brother . I have got one little daughter named Nelly after sister Nelly I am married to a native of australia her father has half a dozen houses of his own perhaps bye and bye she will a share of them. She sends her love to you all as well as myself I was sorry to here of poor Nelly going to service for a small sum of 3/10 a cook out here gets 16/- per week. I think I have told you all just now I enclose my letter with kind love to mother and father you and your wife and children excepting the same from me my wife and child. I remain your loving brother A.Newman
I will send you my portrait and my wife’s in next letter. Give my love to the little darling Nelly and the other ones I have not seen, for allXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
My address is Mr A Newman
C/- General Post Office
Sydney Australia

I wondered if he was going to draw the portraits himself as we have a drawing done by him of his grandparents house in Eltisley Cambridgeshire. There is an attached note saying it was drawn by ‘Alfred Newman or Hatcher’ - so perhaps other members of the family were just as confused by the two surnames as I have been.

[Val and George]

This is what I have so far about Alfred and his family
Ellen Newman married Robert Hatcher 23rd November 1862 @ the Parish church of Hackney in London. They were both of full age, Robert was a carman his father was Samuel Hatcher a labourer. Ellen’s father was Richard Newman a carpenter. Witnesses Alfred Long and Emma Hatcher.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1871 Census - Walthamstowe
Robert Hatcher H M 53 carman b.Cambs
Ellen " wife M 34 b.Eltisley
Alfred " son 12 b.Walthamstowe
Herbert " " 7 "
George " " 5 "
Ellen " dau 4 "
Robert " son 1 "
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1881 Census - Essex St Mary
Skelton Marsh Road
Robert Hatcher H M 60 carman b.Cambs, Upwell
Ellen " wife M 44
Herbert " son 19 carman
George " " 15 errand boy
Ellen " dau 14 scholar
Minnie " " 6
Elizabeth T " 2
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1891 Census - Walthamstowe Essex
2 Skelton cottages
Robert Hatcher H M 65 carman
Ellen " wife M 52
Minnie " dau 16 housekeeper (dom)
Tamar " " 12 scholar
Rose " " 8
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1901 Census - Eltisley
Ellen Hatcher a widow aged 65 is back home in Eltisley nursing her mother who is 97 years old.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The drawing we have done 'by Alfred Newman or Hatcher' is of the grandparents house in Eltisley

[Val and George]

Alfred doesn't seem to appear in any other census after that.

His mother Ellen had a sister Jane who married Charles Coe in Cambridge and then in 1852 they travelled out to Australia to the gold fields of Victoria ending up in Williamstown Melbourne where they settled and raised a large family, so Alfred would have known something of what to expect out there from letters that Jane sent back to the family.

I think the brother he had written the letter to would have been Herbert as Robert seems to have 'disappeared' at an early age

I think that is all the information I can supply at present

[Mary from Italy]

What a fascinating letter!



I wondered if he was going to draw the portraits himself as we have a drawing done by him of his grandparents house in Eltisley Cambridgeshire.

It's possible, but he might also have meant a photograph, I think. One of my ancestors was one of the early photographers in Aus, and his photos of people were called studio portraits.

[kylejustin]

i have letters from my 3rd great grandfather from victoria, to his family back home, he mentions sending his portrait, which would be a photo. i dont think he ever did. he also took his mother's maiden name, which was his middle name when he arrived here in 1842.

i think you have the right family in england, but i think you need to trace his mother backwards, and find a birth. they may help with the future, especially if he married in england? does his letter say where he wrote it? my ancestor gave his address on the letters he sent back?

[dicole]

The floods around Bourke started in April, and the general strike of 1890 was Aug-Nov - maritime, shearing, mining everything it seems. I wonder if Alfred only had a PO box because he had been ill in hospital and then on strike - perhaps he did not have a permanent place to stay. Perhaps his wife and daughter Nelly stayed with her family - the way he talks about his little daughter makes me think she would not be older than 5 or 6. Nelly could have been her nickname, and she may not have been registered as Ellen.....

[Sunny Kate]

Ah, the plot becomes more obscure!

Had it been Minnie who was his wife it's easy to track her father Thomas who had his sewing machine business.

There are two possible Alfred Newman listed in Sands Directories but it doesn't sound as though this Alfred is in business in Sydney. One of them was a District Registrar of BDMs for some years.

It does sound as though Alfred is probably renting a room or rooms somewhere in central Sydney.
Maybe the daughter's name was Helen or even Eleanor - I've known both to be called Nelly.

I also wonder what gold town area he did his speculating as there were many who lost their funds in the diggings around the Bathurst area as well as in the Victorian fields.

Val, you know we're going to want the rest of this story....;)

[Val and George]

Thankyou all for your help so far.

I hadn't thought of 'portraits' being a photo...........a good point

Kyle I would love to find a birth for Alfred but unfortunately there were quite a few Alfred Newman's born that particular year, and as his mother was in service and travelled around the Cambridge/London area in her positions I might have to buy up quite a few before finding the right one. But I will do some more work on that particular area if I can. The census does say he was born Walthamstowe - but like his surname that may just have been the person who gave the information.

Someone mentioned passenger lists.........so they might be worth looking at as he mentions ship travel too. I think they would be on FMP which I don't have a sub for but I think I can pay for credits which could well be worth a try.

Di, I thought Nelly would be about that age group..........and I am sure she would have been either Nelly or Ellen - the names Eleanor or Helen don't come into the Newman family at all.........they were fairly rigid with names in that particular branch. Tamar was a popular name and my Mum can remember aunt Tamar vaguely, as was Henrietta which was usually shortened to Hetty.

I was so sure that her birth would be an easier find which would then lead to the marriage...........oops - I was wrong.

Kyle I don't think he would have married in England as he says he married a 'native of Australia......'
it sounds more like he is telling his family that he is now a married man - something that had happened out in Oz rather than the UK.

[Val and George]

I am bumping this one up again hoping that something more will come to light.
Fingers crossed....:D

[kylejustin]

there is one alfred j. newman coming from london on the euripides on 28 mar 1928, destination sydney. last address was 3 high st, balham, surrey. a farmhand, his age has been coloured in. he planned to live in australia.

[Val and George]

Thankyou Kyle but that one is too late for my man - he would have come around 1880.

I have been checking the marriages for Alfred and births for daughter Nelly/Ellen in Qld & Tasmania with no luck
NSW came up with a marriage in 1885 for an Alfred Newman to an Elizabeth Frost in Yass which could be a possibility,
but no birth for Nelly

Jood has found this which is South Australia....and is a possibility
We have actually visited Yankalilla - wished I'd known then about Alfred Newman.....lol


Val is this your man? Dated Thursday 29 March 1934

Letters Of Administration
Granted
Letters of administration of the es
tate of Alfred Newman, of Norman
ville, who died Intestate, were granted
yesterday to Herbert Alfred Newman,
of Yankalilla, a son of the deceased
man. The estate is valued, subject to
deductions for debts and other liabili
ties, at £10.106 11/8.

Thanks Jood, and now I will try looking at more marriages and births online for the other states, I was cut off last night - our 'puter is still playing up.

[Harrys mum]

Val.......................are you positive the date of the letter is 1890?????

[Val and George]

Yes Libby - it is quite a clear photocopy and the date at the top states

Sydney Nov 20 1890

I was hoping that there might be an electoral roll for Sydney for 1891 - as it does sound as if he is living there from the information he gives to his brother about the other brother George joining him in Oz, and Alfred finding a job for him in a butchers shop.

There wouldn't be a marriage of an Alfred Hatcher around that time would there - just in case he used his stepfather's name for his marriage?

[Harrys mum]

Val...................have you gone through all the Alfred Newmans on the NSW BDM marriage index for later children???

***just so I don't double up***

[Sunny Kate]

Val, is it possible he had another given name but preferred to use Alfred?
I had trouble with one of mine because he didn't use his given first name and was known to all by his second name????

[Val and George]

No, I haven't Libby 'cos I didn't know his wifes name....I thought that finding his marriage would be the first step.

Maybe he didn't marry in NSW - I really don't know. If he was on the goldfields then he might have been in Victoria first.

Kate - The only name I have for him is Alfred - I don't think he had a middle name.
Unfortunately I can't find his birth as there were a few Alfred Newman's born around the same time - although the one in Cambridge is the more possible, even though Ellen worked in London around that time. She may have gone back home to her family to give birth.

[Val and George]

Well I checked the birth for the Alfred Newman born in Cambridge in 1859 and I think that his parents were John and Sarah - so that rules that birth out.

I was reading through all the information I have yet again and had another look at the sketch I have which is titled "The old house at home"

and someone else has attached another piece of paper with it and written - 'this sketch was done by Alfred Newman or Hatcher about 1887. It is his grandparents home at Cambridge which they were turned out of at the age of 99 after living there all their married lives about 80 years'

This is the house in Eltisley in Cambridge, and his Grandfather Richard Newman died at the age of 99 in 1900 and his wife Ellen in 1902 aged 97.

My question is..........does the title of the sketch sound as though he had drawn it from memory and sent it back to the UK from Oz do you think?