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DiD
27-09-09, 08:33
Have been researching the family tree for 6 months now and the family on my maternal grandfather's side all have the name Levien inserted before Thompson. Even my great-grandfather's first wife has the name on her headstone.
Is there a way I can trace where and when this name originated?
Di

naomiatt
27-09-09, 09:04
Hello Di. Going back in time, do you have any Jewish ancestry in your background?
Levien can be a Sephardic name originating from Spain, Portugal and Arabia/Persia.
It can also be Levi etc and you'll often see it in the same way as yours.
It is also a middle English name originating from the first name Lefwine, and originates from Shropshire Levien Family Crest (http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.fc/qx/levien-family-crest.htm) This site mentions Leuun in the Domesday Book as another option
Levien Coat of Arms / Levien Family Crest (http://www.4crests.com/levien-coat-of-arms.html)

dicole
27-09-09, 09:15
First thing to do is to track back through the Thompsons and see if the "Levien" name comes to the family by marriage. Many families, especially my Scottish ones, kept using mothers and grandmothers maiden names,for both girls and boys, we have Robert Inglis Whyte, William Inglis Whyte, Laura Inglis Whyte, Emily Wilson Whyte (mother Emily Wilson Tate) Mary Locke Whyte, Wilhelmina Locke Langley, Lilian Whyte Langley etc etc

di

DiD
27-09-09, 09:32
Have looked at Levien on website and found crest etc.. Have got back as far as George Levien Thompson 1836-1912 so not sure when it appears. All subsequent children and grandchildren seem to have it.
Di

naomiatt
27-09-09, 10:43
Hi Di -DiD - Do you have Lewis Levian Thompson, born Fulham, 1909? Just wondered, as he came from a Protestant upbringing with a mother who had Irish ancestry and a father who was partly Jewish and came from Gosport.

DiD
27-09-09, 11:51
Ok, where do you find all this out,looked at the 1911 and no mention of Levian?
Di

naomiatt
27-09-09, 12:11
Hi - I just googled the surname and this info showed.
On FreeBMD only one, Edith Levian Thompson, birth, Sept quarter, 1874, Alverstoke, came up...so looks like the surname will show as Levian on the odd occasion, but more than likely Thompson.
I think Lewis Levian Thompson is showing as Lewis Frederick L Thompson on BMD
FreeBMD - Search (http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl) Be worth looking into his background and seeing what you can find. He's quite well documented. I've not checked 1911 census, but I suspect they're going to show under Thompson.

Meridian Line
27-09-09, 14:18
Di,
your George Levien Thompson that was born in Lambeth 1836, have you got his marriage certificate to see what his father was called?

There seems to be a few Levien Thompsons being born in Lambeth in 1840s, could they be his siblings? If they are, then their birth certificate would give father & mother.

dicole
27-09-09, 14:19
Edith, in the 1881 census, is with her father Geo Levien Thompson and brother George Levien Thompson. George Levein Thompson (son) was registered in Northampton. In 1891 George is indexed as Geo Levison Thompson, in Portsea.

In 1861, Geo Levern and his son Geo L Thompson are found in Northampton. Its going to be hard work to find all the Levien variations !!

Meridian Line
27-09-09, 14:23
Have you tried googling "levien thompson", there's lots of hits for Lewis Levien Thompson

Mary from Italy
27-09-09, 14:32
The new London baptism records on Ancestry have a baptism on 14 May 1876 for a Frances Julia Levien Thompson, daughter of Henry Levien Thompson and Jane Levien Thompson, at All Saints, Notting Hill.

Meridian Line
27-09-09, 14:43
I think I've found him in 1851....been through all the Geo* Tho*s*ns, & finally found a french polishing one

son of James & Charlotte Thomson in Lambeth

Meridian Line
27-09-09, 14:45
class; HO 107
Piece ; 1571
folio; 381
page 19

DiD
27-09-09, 14:52
Hi Louise
That is my great-grandfather, but there are other Levien Thompsons popping out of the woodwork, trying to find out where they all fit. Common theme of course is Gosport
Di

Meridian Line
27-09-09, 14:54
The sons Michael & John would fit the Levien Thompson births in Lambeth in 1840s.....that would give you the mother's maiden name.

maudarby
27-09-09, 15:01
Hi
There's a marriage on ancestry, 1866 Battersea for a Henry Levien Thompson to a Jane Bennett, his father is James Levien Thompson, they were both french polishers. One of the witnesses is Frances Elizabeth Levien.
Moggie

Mary from Italy
27-09-09, 15:04
The IGI has Elizabeth and Charlotte Jane Levien-Thompson, bap 1866 and 1868 at Old Church, St. Pancras, both children of Jane and Henry LT.

Mary from Italy
27-09-09, 15:08
LT's born in Alverstoke:

Births Sep 1874
Levien Thompson Edith Alverstoke 2b 495
Births Sep 1884
Levien-Thompson Ethel Agnes Alverstoke 2b 551
Births Dec 1890
Levien-Thompson George Alverstoke 2b 497

Christine in Herts
27-09-09, 17:47
The new London baptism records on Ancestry have a baptism on 14 May 1876 for a Frances Julia Levien Thompson, daughter of Henry Levien Thompson and Jane Levien Thompson, at All Saints, Notting Hill.

Can't see this has already been remarked, but this one was a French polisher, too.

Christine

Christine in Herts
27-09-09, 17:52
The IGI has Elizabeth and Charlotte Jane Levien-Thompson, bap 1866 and 1868 at Old Church, St. Pancras, both children of Jane and Henry LT.

The Ancestry record shows them as both baptised 6 July 1868, but b 4 Jul 1866 & 12 Jun 1868; they lived in Henry St; Henry was a carman - not a French polisher.

Christine

Christine in Herts
27-09-09, 17:55
On the other hand there's a record in All Saints, Kensington, for Frances Julia, same parents (it looks like), and bap 14 May 1876, where he is a French polisher.

Christine

Meridian Line
28-09-09, 12:50
Di,
I hope you managed to find James & Charlotte Thompson in 1851 eventually. They are also on the 1841, in a similar area (Lambeth), the 41 says none of them were born "in county", I haven't done any London research myself, so i don't know how significant that would be, considering George says he born in Lambeth on all the following census.Perhaps someone else who has done some London research could help....could it mean they were born in Greater London?

I've tried to find Frances Elizabeth Levien, (the marriage witness) but can't find her on any census, although there is a family with parents Edward & Elizabeth Levien in the same area, so they're probably connected....they have a daughter Julia, that name seems to be popular with the Thompson family, so again there is a tenuous link.

Don't forget to use the wildcard search, it helps when the spelling isn't transcribed correctly.

DiD
28-09-09, 14:08
Please can I thank you all for showing me where to look for marriage records, censuses etc.. I only wish I had half your expertise.
Di

Darksecretz
28-09-09, 17:04
Please can I thank you all for showing me where to look for marriage records, censuses etc.. I only wish I had half your expertise.
Di

Di,

it will come with time, the more you read and find out which sites are best for what record you need.. you will get there, honest :smilee:

maudarby
28-09-09, 17:10
Hi Di
I can't find the marriage witness Frances Elizabeth Levien either on any census but I have found a possible marriage for her in 1879 to Frank Osborne at St George the Martyr, Queen Square. Both of full age. Frank's address is 91Charrington St & this is where they are living in 1881. Frances' details from this census are that she was born c1851 Lambeth.
Frances's father was Solomon Levien, cabinet maker & her address was 6 East St.
East St could be anywhere in London but there was an East St in the district of St George the Martyr & living at no 6 in 1881 was a Charlotte LEVINE wid age 76 born London & her sister Fanny Gabriel age 64 unmarried born London.
I am still trying to find these sisters on an earlier census.
Moggie

Forgot to give witnesses names George Levien & Elizabeth Wilson or Milson.

Meridian Line
28-09-09, 19:54
Moggie,
the Charlotte Levien & Fanny Gabriel were a good find....though I'm having trouble finding them in earlier census.

There is a Charlotte Levien marriage on Ancestry, on the LMA data, could anyone with access have a look & see if she married a James Thompson, please.

thank you,

Mary from Italy
28-09-09, 20:25
No, she married Robert Bodmin at Saint James the Great, Bethnal Green, on 9 April 1871.

Mary from Italy
28-09-09, 20:27
Just looked at the image, and I'm pretty sure the surname's mistranscribed - should be Swain, not Levien.

Meridian Line
28-09-09, 20:42
Thanks Mary...thought I was onto something there!!:(

naomiatt
29-09-09, 06:04
Hi - I don't susbscribe to the major sites - Lewis Frederick L Thompson was registered March quarter, Fulham, 1909. He had two sisters. I think this is Lewis Frederick Levian Thompson, the poet/author as per his bio. Can anybody see more info for this family?
Thanks.

DiD
29-09-09, 08:29
Am getting scared to go to bed as you are all beavering away on my behalf, can only hope you are on another continent.
Have contacted America to see if Richard Lannoy (Lewis's editor) can throw a little more light on this branch of the family.
Di

maudarby
29-09-09, 09:28
Morning Di
Something a bit strange going on with this family. Michael married 1866 as Thompson Levien, father James Thompson Levien & both Michael & Henry are listed in the 1871 census as Levien. You have to send for one of the birth certs to find the maiden name of Charlotte to satisfy our curiousity. Michael is indexed as Mitchell so I would go for John's cert. Details John Levien Thompson 1849 Qtr Jan/Feb/Mar Lambeth Vol 4 Page 309. I have checked the details on the image.
Moggie

DiD
29-09-09, 10:29
Thanks, will do so as soon as I get home. Am busy house-sitting a 17yr grand-son and a dog and don't want to put my card details into this computer.
Di

naomiatt
29-09-09, 12:03
According to the bio for Lewis Levien Thompson, he had two younger sisters, Margot and Irene known as Rene. I found a Margot Alice L Thompson reg June quarter, 1910 in West Ham...not sure about Irene...

maudarby
29-09-09, 17:11
According to the bio for Lewis Levien Thompson, he had two younger sisters, Margot and Irene known as Rene. I found a Margot Alice L Thompson reg June quarter, 1910 in West Ham...not sure about Irene...
That was a brilliant bit of info. I have now found that Lewis Levien Thompson was the great grandson of James, grandson of George (1836) & son of Henry(1866).
Henry Lewis L Thompson married Ella Elizabeth Shoebridge Q4 1907 Richmond Surrey.
1911 census West Ham district
Henry age 45 (1866) born Gosport
Ella age 38 (1875) born Kent
Lewis age 2 (1909) born Fulham
Margot age 11 mths (1910)

Irene was born in 1912 West Ham district.
Moggie

Christine in Herts
29-09-09, 18:15
Henry Lewis L Thompson married Ella Elizabeth Shoebridge Q4 1907 Richmond Surrey.

They don't come up as having married at the church there.

Christine

DiD
29-09-09, 19:23
Thank-you so much, I knew there had to be a link to James. Heard back from America with Richard lannoy's address. But first off to the library.
Do

naomiatt
29-09-09, 22:17
Quote -Henry Lewis L Thompson married Ella Elizabeth Shoebridge Q4 1907 Richmond Surrey.
They don't come up as having married at the church there.

Hi Christine - could they have married in a registry office? I don't know too much about church records....better on synagogues! ;-)
What's interesting is that Richmond is not too far from West Molesey - (I used to live in Richmond and Twicks etc) - one bio says that the family spent time at their summer house, 'The Priory'....there was a Priory there..which is now a football ground..and there is a Priory Road...I found a reference to Priory House as a name but for the 1700's.
Another bio says that it was the home of his aunt and uncle. Either way, it's a good area. The bio also says that his father run away at 18 to join the Fifth Dragoon Guards, served in India and was at the seige of Ladysmith during the Boer War.
One bio says that Lewis went to a private school, the other that he went to Loughton School for Boys, and as a teen, he lived in London on his own and surived on a legacy.
I get the feel that the family might not have approved of his involvement with Buddhism as they were strict Protestant..it says his mother was part Irish and his father part Jewish....which would make sense, and I think must go back to the original Levien connection. I suppose that could have been Levy as well, or Levine, etc..does imply they were Levites..so might have been something H'Levi and it's morphed.

Thanks Moggie! ; -)

Christine in Herts
29-09-09, 22:24
...could they have married in a registry office?

That's certainly a possibility - or, if they were Christian, not C of E or RC, but protestant, they may have been married in a Methodist or Baptist Church, or in a Quaker Meeting House.

I thought it worth remarking because the Richmond parish marriage registers are amongst the new images available on Ancestry.

Christine

naomiatt
29-09-09, 22:34
Hi Christine - I don't subscribe to any of the major sites...are there records for Methodists, Baptists and Quakers for that time frame? - or are there death records for Henry Lewis L Thompson and Ella?
Naomi

Christine in Herts
29-09-09, 22:53
There are, possibly, LDS films, which may/not be available online in transcription.

Death records may be only in the form of civil registration. That is - you'd need the civil registration to be able to start guessing the burial place.

... But somewhere around Richmond, as I recall, there are cemetery records online?

Yes: http://www2.richmond.gov.uk/burials/
but at the moment:

Unfortunately our burial records search is currently unavailable. Please try another time. We apologise for any inconvenience caused.

Christine

maudarby
29-09-09, 22:54
Hi Naomi
I have only just stumbled across the site where you you found the info about Lewis Thompson but I was already getting the feeling of Jewish connections via the Levien name. If Charlotte's maiden name doesn't turn out to be Levien then I am sure that it will appear in her family 1 or 2 generations removed. The Leviens keep cropping up in events in the Thompson family i.e
John Levien Thompson married Susannah Elizabeth Thurpin in 1868. When he died in 1877 Susannah re married in 1882 & one of her witnesses was a Sarah Levien.
Moggie

naomiatt
29-09-09, 22:58
Hi Christine - yes, just looked it up Burial registers search - London Borough of Richmond upon Thames (http://www2.richmond.gov.uk/burials/regenq.asp) but not available at the moment. Got it from Cyndi's List - England - Surrey (http://www.cyndislist.com/eng-sry.htm)
Unless they stayed around West Ham maybe. Wonder if Margot and 'Rene' married?

Christine in Herts
29-09-09, 23:06
Margot may have married in 1941q2 - that is, someone with her unusual name & extra initials did. The partner doesn't come up readily - will have to do a bit of rooting around, but the surname is unusual.

... I think this means that I can name the surname:
There's a matching death for Margot Alice DURKIN aged 89 in West Surrey in Oct 1999. Her DoB is given as 17 Apr 1910.

There are a couple of likely children b Brentford 1943q2 and 1947q1: a son and a daughter.
Can't see a marriage for the son, but the daughter may have married in 1970q1 in Ealing (with a possible daughter and son in the London-ish area, in the next few years).

Christine

naomiatt
29-09-09, 23:11
Hi Moggie - Yes, I'm sure there was a Jewish Levien..it can also be Levy, Levine, Levy etc etc The name Lewis is an anglicised form of Levy and derivatives. Also, Solomon is a Jewish name for example, so is Sarah. If it comes from the male side of the family, somewhere there is a male who was more than likely a Levite....or if it's a female, her father was a Levite....the surname could have been something different but would have ended with Ha Levi for Jewish records. Not all Levy's etc are Levites but I'd say in this case they probably are and that's why it's been carried down.

maudarby
29-09-09, 23:20
Hi Naomi
I don't think the Levien name came through to the family via James. He was born in Wells Norfolk, from census records & I can't find any evidence of this name in Norfolk.
Moggie

Christine in Herts
29-09-09, 23:25
I see that the MMN for Irene (1912q4) is transcribed as "Shobridge".

Looking for marriages turns up too many possibilities: not hundreds, but too many to guess with.

Christine

PS... there is a death for Irene Ella BRECH, age 88, in Oct 2000, whose DoB was 21 Sep 1912. This would go with the marriage of Irene E L Thompson in 1936q3 Brentford (that spouse doesn't come up readily, either).

naomiatt
29-09-09, 23:31
Christine - Brentford and West Surrey make sense if they stayed in the area.
Moggie - let's hope there's a birth cert for Charlotte! ; -)
Di - Are you looking to make contact with the family in a forward sense re; Christine's info.

DiD
30-09-09, 10:33
It is all so overwhelming, but would love to make contact for the sake of my children.
Di

maudarby
30-09-09, 11:21
Margot may have married in 1941q2 - that is, someone with her unusual name & extra initials did. The partner doesn't come up readily - will have to do a bit of rooting around, but the surname is unusual.

Terence J Durkin spouse name LevieU- Thompson.
Moggie

naomiatt
30-09-09, 11:38
Hi Di - yes, it can all be a bit daunting sometimes! ; -) - but it's great to get results!!

naomiatt
30-09-09, 12:01
Just been looking in the London Gazette - quite a few mentions of the name e.g
Able Seaman Albert William Levien Thompson abandoned the Levien part in 1934,
in 1955, William Henry Levien Thompson was announced as a Storehouseman at
Priddy's Hard and Rupert Arthur Levien Thompson was announced as a Coppersmith...
London Gazette Home Page (http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/home.aspx?geotype=London)
It might also be worth chasing up Lewis's father's role in the Boer War..there should be some records for him.

DiD
30-09-09, 13:08
What a coincidence my grandfather Ernest Levien Thompson worked at Priddys Hard.
Di

Christine in Herts
30-09-09, 14:41
Possibly not a coincidence - maybe a connection.

This site is interesting:
Priddy's Hard. (http://www.priddyshard.com/history.htm)

Christine

naomiatt
30-09-09, 23:05
Hi Christine - Yes, I agree...probably find that more of the family worked there as well.

DiD
01-10-09, 08:18
Priddys Hard used to be one of our biggest employers here in Gosport. Even my mother had to work there as part of her war effort, only having to leave when she was carrying me because it was a munitions depot.
Di

naomiatt
02-10-09, 02:31
Hi - have you received Charlotte's birth cert?

DiD
02-10-09, 07:28
no, but will let you know the minute I do.
Di

maudarby
02-10-09, 09:40
Hi - have you received Charlotte's birth cert? :conf:

Hi Di
Have I missed something? I thought it was John's birth cert you were sending for to find out Charlotte's maiden name.
Moggie

naomiatt
02-10-09, 10:39
My fault..confused the names around.....unless you're getting two certs Di! ; -)

DiD
02-10-09, 11:44
Only one to start with!
Sorry to go on about this lot, but can see John Levien Thompson marrying Susannah Elizabeth Thurpin at St George's Hannover Square 1868, see them lodging there 1871 census where she is now Susan Elizabeth and can see death of Susan Elizabeth Thompson age 3 Dec 1869 London C. But can't find her birth anywhere.
Any ideas?
Di

kylejustin
02-10-09, 11:53
im guessing susan and sussanah are the same person? not mother and daughter? if it is the mother's death, how old was she?

DiD
02-10-09, 11:56
No it's the three year old girl's birth I'm trying to find to see if she is related.
di

naomiatt
02-10-09, 22:13
There is a Susan Thompson, Stepney, reg March quarter, 1869. Could she have been 3 months and not 3 years??

DiD
02-10-09, 22:17
Here they are again. Rupert Arthur Levien Thompson - according Free Bmd Death Records born 5/7/1895 died Feb 1984. Southern Hampshire. Can see him in the London Gazette working as a Coppersmith in Portsmouth Dockyard, but cannot find his birth or him in a census!!
Di

Christine in Herts
02-10-09, 22:22
Is there any connection with the name DOWLING?

Rupert Arthur L DOWLING b 1895q3 Portsea Island 2b-481

Christine

DiD
02-10-09, 22:28
That is brilliant because Lily Dowling became my great-grandfather George Levien Thompson's second wife. She was his mistress for years and had several children out-of-wedlock!!!! My grandfather being one of them, but Rupert has never cropped up before!
Di

Christine in Herts
02-10-09, 22:30
Wow! That's seriously pleasing!

Christine :D :D

maudarby
02-10-09, 22:31
Hi
Wasn't Lillie Emma Dowling George L Thompson's mistress in 1891? Rupert born a few years later.
Moggie

Christine in Herts
02-10-09, 22:47
I see that Knightroots has a few mentions of the name...

ST MATTHEW GOSPORT CHU24/1A/1 1846-1870
BAPTISMS
page 155 no 1239 private bapt Feb 4 1865 Alice dr of George & Ann Elizabeth LEVIEN THOMPSON Pauls Yard French polisher


GOSPORT ST MATTHEW PCRO CHU24/1B/1 1846-1930
MARRIAGES
page 111 no 221 Nov 12 1909 William HACKETT 27 bachelor Armourer crew RN Market House Gosport & Maude Levien THOMPSON 25 spinster Tailoress 67 High Street Gosport by licence both signed fathers Charles George HACKETT Farm foreman & George Levien THOMPSON French polisher in the presence of Arthur LONG & Olive May THOMPSON


MARRIAGES ST JOHN THE EVANGELIST FORTON
1841-1900 CHU52
Page 29 no 57 Apr 26 1886 William Henry GOUGH 23 bachelor Labourer Forton & Emily Dorcas HASKELL 25 spinster Forton married after banns both signed fathers Henry GOUGH Carter & William HASKELL Carpenter in the presence of George LEVIEN-THOMPSON & Alice Harriett COBB

Christine

DiD
02-10-09, 22:47
That's right, you can see her marked as "mistress" on the census and they wed within months of his first wife's death!
Di

DiD
02-10-09, 22:49
Yep, they are all mine. Even the odd Thompson on Knightsroots who turns up as a witness at a Levien-Thompson wedding, doesn't use the Levien and I can't find where they fit in!
Di

maudarby
02-10-09, 22:52
Hi Di
I am very broad minded but when I found George on the 1891 census listing Lillie as his mistress & all her/their children as Dowlings I was quite shocked to say the least. It was if he was proud of the fact that she was his mistress even though he did eventually marry her .
Moggie

DiD
02-10-09, 22:58
Odd isn't it, obviously it was never something mentioned when I was a child!
Di

Christine in Herts
02-10-09, 23:23
It is extraordinary, for the time, one feels.

Christine

Christine in Herts
02-10-09, 23:32
I think Rupert was going by his second name in 1901. I think he's the one transcribed as "Asbur" (no shame to the transcriber on this occasion).

RG13/1012 fo77 p9. All as just THOMPSON.

Christine

maudarby
03-10-09, 16:12
Hi Di
Have you seen the Thompson couple living in Wells in 1851. James age 70 & Sarah age 66, old enough to be your James' parents. They had 4 children baptised at Wells in 1818,1820.1825 & 1827. There are burials for 2 of these children & a daughter Mary Ann age 15 buried in 1830. There is no baptism for her at Wells which makes me think they came to Wells from elsewhere. Unfortunately none of the baptisms give Sarah's maiden name.
Moggie

- Ancestry.co.uk (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8860&iid=NFKHO107_1826_1827-0527&fn=Jas&ln=Thompson&st=d&ssrc=&pid=5323997)

P S The baptisms & burials can be found on FreeREG.

Meridian Line
03-10-09, 16:14
Di,
this is turning into a fascinating family.
Just wondering if you've managed to find George & Lillie in the 1911?

I think I've found him at Alverstoke, but he's transcribed as George Louise Thompson, the children are;

Leonard K age 21 ( I think this must be your grandfather Ernest, but mistranscribed)
Olive age 18
Arthur age 15 ( Rupert Arthur)
Edgar age 9 ( b Dec q 1901)
William age 7 ( b Jun q 1903)
Lawrence age 4 (b Jun q 1907)

The last 3 are all registered (at Alverstoke) as Levien Thompson, whereas the previous children were registered with the surname Dowling,

have you got them all;

Ethel Rosina L Dowling Portsea Dec 1883
Maud Levene " " Dec 1884
Louis Levien " " Dec 1885/ died Dec 1885
Lilley Levien " " Jun 1888
Ernest Levien " " Dec 1890
Olive May L " " Sep 1892
then Rupert

It would be interesting to know whether George is registered as the father on any of the Dowling certificates. Do you have your grandfather Ernest's certificate?

Meridian Line
03-10-09, 16:18
Moggie,
the James & Sarah in Wells are interesting , I see James was born in Northants, where George moved with Ann Elizabeth in 1860ish, their son George was born there.

DiD
03-10-09, 17:39
Have everybody in the 1911 census, and yes Ernest Leonard was my grandfather. He only has a short form birth certificate with Ernest Levien Dowling on it.
DI

DiD
03-10-09, 17:42
Interesting that James was born in Northampton, wondered why they went there and have seen other Thompsons based there.
di

maudarby
03-10-09, 18:43
Hi Di
This is Sarah's burial at Wells. There doesn't appear to be a burial there for James which is strange.
Moggie

Search Results (http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Burials&RecordID=76108)

DiD
03-10-09, 18:57
There is a real enclave of Thompsons there!
Di

Christine in Herts
03-10-09, 19:41
Have everybody in the 1911 census, and yes Ernest Leonard was my grandfather. He only has a short form birth certificate with Ernest Levien Dowling on it.
DI

That wouldn't mean that a full cert isn't available, if you're prepared to spend the £7 to get it.

Christine

DiD
03-10-09, 21:37
Starting to think I own the GRO!
Di

naomiatt
04-10-09, 10:59
quote -there is a death for Irene Ella BRECH, age 88, in Oct 2000, whose DoB was 21 Sep 1912. This would go with the marriage of Irene E L Thompson in 1936q3 Brentford (that spouse doesn't come up readily, either).>

Found them!! Edward Brech | Times Online Obituary (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article599684.ece)
Edward Brech MBE, passed away 22/9/06. His wife, Irene, passed away in 2000.
They had a son and two daughters.

naomiatt
04-10-09, 11:27
Hi Di
Frances' details from this census are that she was born c1851 Lambeth.
Frances's father was Solomon Levien, cabinet maker & her address was 6 East St.
East St could be anywhere in London but there was an East St in the district of St George the Martyr & living at no 6 in 1881 was a Charlotte LEVINE wid age 76 born London & her sister Fanny Gabriel age 64 unmarried born London.
I am still trying to find these sisters on an earlier census.
Moggie

Forgot to give witnesses names George Levien & Elizabeth Wilson or Milson.

There is a death, March quarter, 1869, for a Solomon Levien in St Geo.H.Sq.
I wonder if this is France's father.

Christine in Herts
04-10-09, 14:02
Well done Naomi! You've made some good finds, there... this teamwork thing is really addictive!

Christine

DiD
04-10-09, 16:41
Can remember seeing a census of a levien Thompson in Hannover Square but can never find the sAme thing twice. Think John LT married Susannah Thurpin there.
Di

Meridian Line
04-10-09, 16:52
Di,
have you got a family tree program?, where you can put all your information on. It might help you to sort out all the Levien Thompsons if you printed out a family tree, then saw where they all fit in.

I make a note against the head of the household, where they are in each census, their age, occupation & who is living with them. It helps as you progress, because as you've already found out, its easy to "lose" them, and it helps to see who you haven't found yet. I always track every member of the family through all the census, because it's amazing the number of times they're staying with another family member you knew nothing about!!

DiD
04-10-09, 17:18
Have Family tree legends, but it's not v good.
Di

maudarby
04-10-09, 17:39
- Ancestry.co.uk (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7619&iid=LNDRG10_96_100-0328&fn=John+L&ln=Thompson&st=d&ssrc=&pid=12583317)

Hi Di
Link to John L Thompson & Susannah in 1871. No children so far. Did you find any children before he died in 1877?
Moggie

Christine in Herts
04-10-09, 17:42
The other think is to be sure you do make a note of document references for things you find. For instance, I've had to go back, adding folio and page numbers when I realised that just the piece number wasn't (usually) going to be enough. It makes it so much easier to go back and check,

Christine

DiD
04-10-09, 18:47
Have seen her calling herself Susan Elizabeth and a daughter Elizabeth Thompson born to John and Susan, but wouldn't like to make any suppositios.
Di

Meridian Line
04-10-09, 19:53
I'm now looking at Thompson Leviens ( don't ask me how I got started on that instead of Levien Thompsons) :eek:

There is an Albert & a Francis, but I can't find them on any census.
There is a Michael Levien Thompson marriage on the LMA records, would someone with access mind giving me the full details, please.

DiD
04-10-09, 21:50
I think you will find Michael married Louisa Farthing.
Di

maudarby
04-10-09, 22:14
I'm now looking at Thompson Leviens ( don't ask me how I got started on that instead of Levien Thompsons) :eek:

There is an Albert & a Francis, but I can't find them on any census.
There is a Michael Levien Thompson marriage on the LMA records, would someone with access mind giving me the full details, please.

Hi
He married as Michael Thompson LEVIEN in 1866 giving his father as James Thompson LEVIEN. He can be found as Michael LEVIEN in the 1871 census likewise his brother Henry who also married in 1866, as Levien THOMPSON.
Moggie

maudarby
04-10-09, 22:23
Have seen her calling herself Susan Elizabeth and a daughter Elizabeth Thompson born to John and Susan, but wouldn't like to make any suppositios.
Di
Hi Di
I can't find her in 1881 just a year before she re married, can you point me in the right direction.
Moggie

Meridian Line
05-10-09, 08:32
Thanks Moggie, I'm beginning to think I need to do my own Levien Thompson tree to keep track:)

Di, I have a 17 year old boy you can come & house sit .....no dog though, does that mean there's no deal! lol

DiD
05-10-09, 08:58
Getting good at interpreting the grunts and providing enough pizzas for the neighbourhood!
Di

naomiatt
05-10-09, 09:06
Can remember seeing a census of a levien Thompson in Hannover Square but can never find the sAme thing twice. Think John LT married Susannah Thurpin there.
Di


Hi Di - yes he did - John Levien Thompson marrying Susannah Elizabeth Thurpin at St George's Hannover Square 1868, see them lodging there 1871 census where she is now Susan Elizabeth and can see death of Susan Elizabeth Thompson age 3 Dec 1869 London C. But can't find her birth anywhere.

maudarby
05-10-09, 09:21
I'm now looking at Thompson Leviens ( don't ask me how I got started on that instead of Levien Thompsons) :eek:

There is an Albert & a Francis, but I can't find them on any census.

Hi
They were Michael & Louisa's sons.
They are here with Louisa's mother in 1881. I am still trying to find Michael & Louisa after 1871.
Moggie

- Ancestry.co.uk (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7572&iid=SRYRG11_797_800-0126&fn=Louisa&ln=Farthing&st=d&ssrc=&pid=21431847)

Meridian Line
05-10-09, 17:11
I've found Louisa & Albert in 1901,

she's transcribed as Laura, they're in Nutley Lane, Reigate.

- Ancestry.co.uk (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7814&iid=SRYRG13_628_629-0148&fn=Albert&ln=Thompson&st=d&ssrc=&pid=4738961)

Meridian Line
05-10-09, 20:06
Possible death for Michael Thompson 4th q 1863 Marylebone (1a 283).

I wonder if the children went to stay with Granny Farthing in Reigate, but Louisa stayed on in London to work in service.

1881; 17 Sinclair Road, St Pauls Hammersmith, there is a Louisa Thompson, general servant, born Buckland, Reigate, Surrey. She is down as unmarried & is 33 (instead of 36), but she may have said she was single to gain employment.

1891; Louisa Thompson age 43 cook, in Marylebone, single, born Surrey.

Louisa possibly died 2nd q 1911, Godstone, Surrey ( Godstone is near Reigate, & there are no likely deaths in Hampshire where Francis went to live).

maudarby
05-10-09, 22:10
Possible death for Michael Thompson 4th q 1863 Marylebone (1a 283).

Hi
Hate to throw a spanner in the works but I am sure that I found Michael as Levien in 1871. Will go & check.
Moggie

Found him
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7619&iid=LNDRG10_159_162-0162&fn=Michael+L&ln=Levien&st=d&ssrc=&pid=271459

DiD
05-10-09, 23:04
Am still struggling to keep up!
Di

naomiatt
05-10-09, 23:32
Hi Di - perhaps if you type up the info you have - but quite basic - on here - it will make it look clearer for the facts that you have - e.g Joe Bloggs (1800-1850) m Susan Jones..blah, in blah, children....John m Rose...
if that makes sense! ; -) Then it will be easier for everyone to see what you already know...you could then separate it with a line...and put on the info about Lewis the poet..
and another bit with people that are question marks...
confused myself now! ; -)

DiD
06-10-09, 09:53
Here ia a brief synopsis as I understand it. Without name Levien.
Possibilty James Thompson 1781 m Sarah 1785 Wells
James Thompson 1809 m Charlotte??? French Polisher
Children
George L Thompson 1886-1912 b Lambeth
Julia Thompson 1837 b Southwark
Esther Thompson 1839 b Southwark
Elizabeth 1841 b Lambeth
Henry 1843 b Lambeth
Michael 1844 b Lambeth
John 1849 b Lambeth
Marriages
George L m Ann Elizabeth Munns
Louis b1858-59 George b 1860 Alice 1865-1865 Henry b 1866 Ada b 1870
Edith Emma 1871-1872 Edith b 1874
Married Lily Dowling
Ethel b 1884 Maude b 1885 Lillie b 1888 Ernest 1890 - 1978 George 1891-1907
Olive b 1893 Rupert b 1895 - 1984 Edgar b 1902 William b 1903 Laurence b 1907
Henry 1843 m Jane Bennett
children
Elizabeth b 1866
Charlotte b 1868
Francis b 1876
Michael 1844 m Louisa Farthing
children
Albert b 1868 Emma b 1870 Mary b 1878
John 1849 m Susannah Thurkin
Henry 1866 son of George L 1836 m Ella Shoebridge
children
Lewis Levien 1909-1949 the poet!!!!
Margot b 1910 and Irene 1912-2000
There are a lot more marriages and children, but if you write this out, you might be a bit clearer.
Di

naomiatt
06-10-09, 10:00
Thanks Di - I've just printed it out! ; -) Now I'll be counting Levien's and Thompson's instead of sheep! ; -)

Do you have birth records for George L T born 1836?

Meridian Line
06-10-09, 11:13
I'm struggling to keep up too. Sorry about the muddle with Michael supposedly dying in 1863, when he was on the 1871 census.

To Michael & Louisa I also have a Francis , born about 1874 at St george's London, although I haven't found him on FreeBMD.

Di, I'm sorry I confused you saying he was in Hampshire in 1901, I actually can't find him anywhere. He marries in Reigate in march q 1899 ( to Clara Young?), there is a Phyllis May T Levien born July q 1899 Surrey RD, which could be his, but I've probably lost the plot again.(I even looked to see if he emigrated...but not as Levien)

It was Albert (b 1868), who ended up in Hampshire (Christchurch), he married Jun q 1906 , these could be his children Dorothy Louisa T Levien b Sep q 1907 & Albert William Levien b Sep q 1909 Christchurch.

Also to Michael & Louisa is Emma Esther T Levien b Jun q 1870 Marylebone, marries George Frederick Ensor Sep q 1894 reigate.

Meridian Line
06-10-09, 11:24
I've played a little with the synopsis, hope you don't mind!

Here is a brief synopsis as I understand it. Without name Levien.
Possibility James Thompson 1781 m Sarah 1785 Wells
James Thompson 1809 m Charlotte??? French Polisher
Children
George L Thompson 1836-1912 b Lambeth
Julia Thompson 1837 b Southwark
Esther Thompson 1839 b Southwark
Elizabeth 1841 b Lambeth
Henry 1843 b Lambeth
Michael 1844 b Lambeth
John 1849 b Lambeth
Marriages
George L m 1)Ann Elizabeth Munns
Louis b1858-59 George b 1860 Alice 1865-1865 Henry b 1866 Ada b 1870
Edith Emma 1871-1872 Edith b 1874

Married 2)Lily Dowling
Ethel b 1884 Maude b 1885 Lillie b 1888 Ernest 1890 - 1978 George 1891-1907
Olive b 1893 Rupert b 1895 - 1984 Edgar b 1902 William b 1903 Laurence b 1907

Henry 1843 m Jane Bennett
children
Elizabeth b 1866 Charlotte b 1868 Rhoda b 1871 Mary A b 1872 Sophie b 1874 Frances Julia b 1876 Jane b 1877 Alice Maude
b 1886

Michael 1844 m Louisa Farthing
children
Albert b 1868 Emma b 1870 Francis b 1876 Mary b 1878

John 1849 m Susannah Thurkin

Henry 1866 (son of George L 1836) m Ella Shoebridge
children
Lewis Levien 1909-1949 the poet!!!! Margot b 1910 Irene 1912-2000
There are a lot more marriages and children, but if you write this out, you might be a bit clearer.

maudarby
06-10-09, 11:51
Hi
I hope you don't mind. A couple of corrections.
George L Thompson 1886-1912 b Lambeth Birth year should be 1836.
Francis born c 1873 was Michael's son & not Henry's. Henry & Jane appear to have only had daughters. Charlotte c1867, Rhoda c 1871, Mary A c 1872, Sophia c1874, Jane c 1877 & Alice Maude c 1886.
Moggie

DiD
06-10-09, 17:27
Hi, George is my great-grandfather, knew he was 1836, I know it's confusing, but I thought Henry had a daughter born Francis Julia b St Pancras 1876 and I have an Elizabeth born 1866.
di

maudarby
06-10-09, 17:47
Hi, George is my great-grandfather, knew he was 1836, I know it's confusing, but I thought Henry had a daughter born Francis Julia b St Pancras 1876 and I have an Elizabeth born 1866.
di
Hi Di
Yes you are right Elizabeth's baptism is in the IGI, born 12th June 1868 & she died in 1869.
Frances Julia's baptism was in Kensington born 20th January 1876 & she died in 1876.
Moggie

Meridian Line
06-10-09, 20:40
Di,

I've found Frances in 1901 at last, & he was in Hampshire after all!!

Frank Thompson age 28 Bath Chairman...whatever that is
Clara Thompson 26 b Wiltshire
May Thompson 2 b Reigate, Surrey (so she must be Phyllis May T Levien)

at 61 Haviland Road, Bournemouth :)

Christine in Herts
06-10-09, 20:55
Di,

... Bath Chairman...whatever that is
...

Wouldn't that be something to do with bath-chairs
pushing?
pushing into the water/sea?
running a business with?

Christine

DiD
06-10-09, 21:20
Many thanks, he would have been living quite close to Albert at Christchurch.
D

naomiatt
07-10-09, 09:54
Wouldn't that be something to do with bath-chairs
pushing?
pushing into the water/sea?
running a business with?

Christine
I found this -so think you're right Christine -
Victorian Occupations - Job Titles in the 19th Century - Beginning with the Letter B (http://www.census1891.com/occupations-b.htm)
Bathing Machine Proprietor One who owned and hired the changing huts used by bathers at the seaside in the 18th century.

DiD
08-10-09, 18:14
Charlotte's birth certificate being posted tomorrow.
Di

Meridian Line
08-10-09, 19:36
Fingers crossed Di, let us know as soon as it arrives. ;D

tiny bit more info about Francis & family,

Phyllis May Thompson Levien married William F Hardy Jan q 1929 Bournemouth RD.

Uncle John
08-10-09, 19:51
Wouldn't that be something to do with bath-chairs
pushing?
pushing into the water/sea?
running a business with?

Bathing machines went in the sea. Bath-chairs were a forerunner of wheelchairs, I think.

Christine in Herts
08-10-09, 21:52
... Bath-chairs were a forerunner of wheelchairs, I think.

But why bath-chairs if no connection with bath/ing?

Christine

naomiatt
09-10-09, 03:45
But why bath-chairs if no connection with bath/ing?

Christine

Unless it means a comode?? ;-)

DiD
09-10-09, 09:05
Perhaps the term originated in Bath when elderly people were pushed around to take the waters there.
Di

margaretmarch
09-10-09, 09:37
Here's a link about bath chairs Bath chair (http://www.cityofbath.co.uk/history/body_bathchair.html)
Seems they were a form of transport
They brought the sick to take the waters at the Pump Room or to bathe in the Baths.
The chair was invented by James Heath of Bath around 1750. It gained in popularity and by 1830 had replaced the sedan chair as a conventional means of transport
Margaret

naomiatt
10-10-09, 07:01
Di - did you hear back from the author about Lewis Levien Thompson?

DiD
11-10-09, 17:24
Not yet, but when I Googled him found he is now 82! I have however made contact with his nephew Robert Brech.
Di

naomiatt
12-10-09, 04:18
Not yet, but when I Googled him found he is now 82! I have however made contact with his nephew Robert Brech.
Di

That's great - hopefully he can give some insight.

DiD
12-10-09, 17:47
At last the birth certificate. Charlotte was born Charlotte GABRIEL. Can see several births on Free BMD. John was christened John Levien although his father is down as James Thompson.
Di

maudarby
12-10-09, 18:06
Hi Di
I can't find the marriage witness Frances Elizabeth Levien either on any census but I have found a possible marriage for her in 1879 to Frank Osborne at St George the Martyr, Queen Square. Both of full age. Frank's address is 91Charrington St & this is where they are living in 1881. Frances' details from this census are that she was born c1851 Lambeth.
Frances's father was Solomon Levien, cabinet maker & her address was 6 East St.
East St could be anywhere in London but there was an East St in the district of St George the Martyr & living at no 6 in 1881 was a Charlotte LEVINE wid age 76 born London & her sister Fanny Gabriel age 64 unmarried born London.
I am still trying to find these sisters on an earlier census.
Moggie

Forgot to give witnesses names George Levien & Elizabeth Wilson or Milson.
Last edited by maudarby; 28-09-09 at 17:26.

Hi Di
The above c & p from my post #25
Moggie

DiD
12-10-09, 18:11
It's like a jigsaw isn't it!
Di

naomiatt
12-10-09, 22:48
Hi Di - somehow there is a connection to Thompson, Levien and Gabriel.......
I found this for a Solomon Levien
Deaths Mar 1869
Levien Solomon 59 St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 206

This might be Fanny Gabriel -
Deaths Jun 1894
Gabriel Fanny 77 St. Saviour 1d 93

There are two deaths for a Charlotte Levien -
Deaths Mar 1888
LEVIEN Charlotte 81 Mile End 1c 402
Deaths Dec 1902
Levien Charlotte M 82 St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 309

Couldn't see a death for a Charlotte Levene which matches up.

naomiatt
12-10-09, 22:50
At last the birth certificate. Charlotte was born Charlotte GABRIEL. Can see several births on Free BMD. John was christened John Levien although his father is down as James Thompson.
Di

What other info does the birth cert give?

maudarby
12-10-09, 23:32
Hi Di
I think we need to research Michael Gabriel, possible brother of Fanny & Charlotte. A Frances Gabriel was living with her brother Michael in 1871. I think he may have died in 1875 & one of his executors was a Louis Levien. Found a reference to his death on the London Gazette site which seems to be having problems at the moment. His address was given as 9 Upper Woburn Place. A Louis Woodfield Levien was baptised in 1836, parents Edward & Elizabeth. Address Upper Woburn Place. Can we prove a connection?
Moggie

naomiatt
13-10-09, 01:04
Hi - have a look at this site. I might be going off tangent - not sure. There is a Fanny Gabriel (it can also be a Jewish surname) - you're probably best to look at the initials of surnames as e.g there are loads of variants for Levi...
Cemetery Scribes (http://www.cemeteryscribes.com/) There is also a Charlotte Gabriel - looks like she is a sister of Fanny - and they have a brother - Michael. Mother is Martha, father Mordechai - that can translate to Morris etc.

DiD
13-10-09, 08:16
Can see a Michael Gabriel living in St Andrews Holborn in the 1891 census. His sisters Fanny and Charlotte live with him, but his Charlotte was born in 1851 and mine in 1805 and his Fanny in 1830 instead of 1817.
Di

DiD
13-10-09, 17:33
Birth certificate gives address in 1849 as 15, Meads Row, Lambeth.
Di

maudarby
13-10-09, 17:56
Can see a Michael Gabriel living in St Andrews Holborn in the 1891 census. His sisters Fanny and Charlotte live with him, but his Charlotte was born in 1851 and mine in 1805 and his Fanny in 1830 instead of 1817.
Di

Hi Di
I have been following this family through the census & in 1891 there were 4 of them living together all unmarried.
Michael age 66
Lewis age 68
Charlotte age 70 & not 40 as transcribed
Fanny age 61.
Their parents were Martha & possibly Montague.

This is a different family to the Michael Gabriel widower in 1871 who had an
unmarried sister Frances living with him & also a widowed sister Ester Cohen.
Moggie

maudarby
13-10-09, 18:21
Hi Di
The only marriage that shows up between 1837 & 1871 for an Ester/Esther Gabriel to a Cohen is in 1845 Mar qtr Esther Gabriel to Jacob Cohen London 2.
If this was her then she would still be unmarried in 1841.
This is a possibility in 1841 Piece 1063 Folio 18 Book 6 Page 29.
Although the 60 year old has been transcribed as Lucy Gabriel, I think it should be Levy & the age is in the male column. He also has a 6 year old Lewis Lieven living with him.
Moggie

DiD
13-10-09, 18:48
Many thanks for your trouble. The one thing running through this is that they are either cabinet makers, french polishers or furniture restorers. Does anybody know if there was a City Guild for this type of craft? Charlotte had a daughter called Esther so it must be a family name.
Di

Meridian Line
13-10-09, 20:24
Di,
I'm still looking!!

Glad you got the certificate at last.

I've found the two separate families of Gabriel, with Michael, Charlotte, & Fanny.
I think we're looking for Charlotte b ~1805
Michael b ~ 1809
Frances/Fanny b ~ 1813
Esther b ~ 1816

They are very difficult to find.

I have found a Charlotte Lavin (on FMP) & Lowin (on Ancestry), which could be Levien when you look at the actual 1861 census, a widow age 57, with a daughter Mary Fisher age 24 & granddaughter age 1, in Marylebone, Pancras.

DiD
13-10-09, 21:33
Can see a Michael Gabriel 1808 married to Frances 1801 in 1861 census living in Lambeth.
Di

naomiatt
14-10-09, 04:58
Many thanks for your trouble. The one thing running through this is that they are either cabinet makers, french polishers or furniture restorers. Does anybody know if there was a City Guild for this type of craft? Charlotte had a daughter called Esther so it must be a family name.
Di

Hi - there is this site - could be something on here -
Directory of London, 1794
An alphabetical List of the Names and Places of Abode of the Directors of Companies, Persons in Public Business, Merchants, and other eminent Traders in the Cities of London and Westminster, and Borough of Southwark.
Genealogy UK Geneology and Family History (http://www.londonancestor.com/)
This has all sorts, but later - ignore the title - lots of info in it
What is New on the London & UK South Pub History Site (http://deadpubs.co.uk/WhatsNew.shtml) and this
Historical Directories: Find by Keywords (http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/findbykeyword.asp)
This is a directory of Jewish traders from 1894 -
Internet Archive: Free Download: Commercial Directory of the Jews of the United Kingdom (http://www.archive.org/details/commercialdirect00harfiala)
I know there are lists of Tailors.....I have the site info if anybody would like the links, ditto sugar refiners...not sure about cabinet makers etc.
As fas as I know, there were Apprenticeships in the 1800's.

naomiatt
14-10-09, 05:02
Hi Di
I have been following this family through the census & in 1891 there were 4 of them living together all unmarried.
Michael age 66
Lewis age 68
Charlotte age 70 & not 40 as transcribed
Fanny age 61.
Their parents were Martha & possibly Montague.

This is a different family to the Michael Gabriel widower in 1871 who had an
unmarried sister Frances living with him & also a widowed sister Ester Cohen.
Moggie

Hi Moggie
The 1891 sound like the family in the cemetery scribes site.
Montague could be Mordechai...

naomiatt
14-10-09, 05:12
Can see a Michael Gabriel 1808 married to Frances 1801 in 1861 census living in Lambeth.
Di

Sounds promising.

Wonder if Lambeth Archives have anything you could look at?
Visit Lambeth Archives | Lambeth Council (http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/LeisureCulture/LocalHistory/Archives.htm)

maudarby
14-10-09, 08:25
This is a different family to the Michael Gabriel widower in 1871 who had an
unmarried sister Frances living with him & also a widowed sister Ester Cohen.

The address in 1871 was 9 Upper Woburn Place.

This is the link to the notice in the London Gazette. Bottom of the page & top of the following page. It might be worth getting a copy of his will to see if Charlotte & her children are mentioned.
Moggie

Gazette Website: PDF Navigator (http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/24267/pages/5494)

DiD
14-10-09, 08:45
There is a baptism for a Louis Woodfield Levien son of Edward and Elizabeth, 14/4/1836. Address Upper Woburn Place.
Di

DiD
14-10-09, 10:20
Please can you advise how I can get a copy of Michael Gabriel's will?
Di

maudarby
14-10-09, 10:54
Please can you advise how I can get a copy of Michael Gabriel's will?
Di
Hi Di
You can download and fill in a form to get a copy of the will from here.
It gives all the details of how to do it & it will cost you £5.
Moggie

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/pa1s_0405.pdf

DiD
14-10-09, 13:16
In the 1851 census is Esther Cohen married to John Cohen, both of Aldgate where Charlotte was born. Staying next door census day just happens to be Fanny Gabriel and Lewis Levien!!!
Di

maudarby
14-10-09, 13:46
In the 1851 census is Esther Cohen married to John Cohen, both of Aldgate where Charlotte was born. Staying next door census day just happens to be Fanny Gabriel and Lewis Levien!!!
Di
Wow Di
That is a good find. I have been trying to find Fanny but I see she has been mis transcribed as Faruq!
So Lewis could be the same one that I found in 1841 living with Levy Gabriel.
Moggie

maudarby
14-10-09, 14:00
Hi Di
I think Elizabeth Jacobs was possibly Fanny's sister. There is a marriage in 1846 of an Elizabeth Gabriel, possible spouse Jacob Jacobs same reg district London 2
as the marriage of an Esther Gabriel the year before.
Moggie

DiD
14-10-09, 14:23
I think Cuther Strub is Cutler Street where they live!
Di

maudarby
14-10-09, 14:38
Hi Di
Possible marriage for Lewis Levien to an Esther Levien both transcribed as Levren. Click on the glasses to look at the image. Her mother was a Rachel & was living with them at one point possibly 1881. Will check now.
Moggie


FreeBMD - Search (http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl?start=1857&end=1857&sq=4&eq=4&type=Marriages&vol=1a&pgno=821&jsexec=1&mono=0&v=MTI1NTUyNTI2NTo4NzM2MzljYTZjMDY1MTcxYWU4N2FiYmEw NDZkYjVhN2MwMjE1ZDkx&searchdef=given%3Dlewis%26countyid%3Dall%26db%3Dbm d_1254881774%26sq%3D1%26v%3DMTI1NTUyNTIyMTpkYjkxYm ZkMzE0YmRjNDQwYWJhN2U4NzU0ZGMwOTE4ZGJmNWI0NzBh%26s urname%3Dlev%252An%26end%3D1861%26districtid%3Dall %26type%3DMarriages%26eq%3D4%26start%3D1855&action=Find)

DiD
14-10-09, 14:46
There is a Louis W Levien married to Ellen L in 1891 census!
Di

maudarby
14-10-09, 14:53
There is a Louis W Levien married to Ellen L in 1891 census!
Di
That's Louis Woodfield Levien. I don't think he married until 1877.
The census where Rachel was living with them was 1871 & they are all transcribed as Levron. By 1881 Louis & Esther had 2 more children, Michael & Fanny.
Moggie

DiD
14-10-09, 14:59
Louis Woodfield was born in Upper Woburn Place though where Michael Gabriel lived and could be his executor.
Di

maudarby
14-10-09, 15:02
Possibility for Rachel born c1811 in 1841 living St Giles in the fields transcribed as Lewin. She has a daughter Esther of the right age & her husband Henry is a french polisher:Big Grin:
Now all we need to do is find them after 1841 & try & prove how or if they are related.
Moggie

DiD
14-10-09, 15:04
Shall view furniture with a new interest in future!
Di

maudarby
14-10-09, 15:05
Louis Woodfield was born in Upper Woburn Place though where Michael Gabriel lived and could be his executor.
Di
Very true Di
Although it could be either of them. In the Times it said that Michael's estate was under £14,000 so £13,000 plus. Quite a bit of money in 1875.
Moggie

Meridian Line
14-10-09, 17:31
I now seem to have;

Levy Gabriel b 1781

children
Charlotte b 1805 (married a Levien, poss dau is Mary, gdau Amelia)
Michael b 1809
Elizabeth b 1813 ( m Jacobs)
Frances b 1814 unmarried
Esther b 1816 ( m John Cohen )
Priscilla b 1821 ( m Solomon Simmonds a tailor, Jun 1850)

1841;
Levy Gabriel
Elizabeth G
Esther G
Priscilla G
Lewis Levien b 1835 ( could he be a grandson of Levy, possibly Charlotte's son ?)

1851;
John cohen
Esther Cohen

next door
Fanny Gabriel (age incorrect)
Lewis Levien 16 (cigar maker)

1861;
Lewis Levien (cigar maker)
Esther Levien wife
Sarah Levien age 18m
Morris/Moses Levien age 15 ???

1871;
Michael Gabriel (siblings)
Esther Cohen
Frances Gabriel


1881;
Charlotte Levien (sisters)
Fanny Gabriel

1891;
Priscilla Simmons
Frances Gabriel

We also have Charlotte Gabriel married to James Thompson & naming children Levien

DiD
14-10-09, 17:40
Charlotte married to James is of course where we came in. She was born in 1805, so could my 2 x great-grandmother have married a Levien first and then just added the name in????!!!!!
Di

maudarby
14-10-09, 18:11
Hi Di & Meridian
Just one correction. Elizabeth married a Jacobs & not a Cohen.
I agree that Frances/Fanny's age was wrong in 1851. It was also wrong in 1891 but Martha's daughter Fanny is at home with her mother in 1851 & living with her brothers & sister in 1891.
Moggie

DiD
14-10-09, 18:32
But if we look at your post 138, there appear to be two different families one Martha - Mordechai one Levy. All childrens names the same just 20 years difference in dates.
di

maudarby
14-10-09, 18:59
But if we look at your post 138, there appear to be two different families one Martha - Mordechai one Levy. All childrens names the same just 20 years difference in dates.
di
Hi Di
It does seem a bit odd that the names are repeated in both families.
Martha was born c1790 so maybe her husband was Levy's brother.
Moggie

maudarby
14-10-09, 19:06
Hi Di
Just found this on the site mentioned by Naomiatt.
I wonder who he was? This is turning into a one name study of Leviens & we are still no nearer to finding an answer to your original question.
Moggie
LEVIEN Henry [Zvi b Mordecai ] b. d. 15 Jan 1849 (http://www.cemeteryscribes.com/getperson.php?personID=I8135&tree=Cemeteries)

Meridian Line
14-10-09, 20:40
Moggie,


I think Lewis/Louis Levien b 1835 & with Levy in 1841, is a cigarmaker, then a cook & married to Esther.

Louis W Levien b 1836 is an accountant with the Inland Revenue & son of Edward & Elizabeth.

Lewis & Eston Levene (sic) are in Bloomsbury in 1851, he's a cigar maker, there also seems to be a Morris (Moses?) Levien age 15 , is he their son??

DiD
14-10-09, 21:21
Do you thinkthis Henry Levien is Rachel's husband and Esther's father - Henry the French Polisher. If we could only find Charlotte with a Levien before she married James - bingo! Where did you see her with daughter Mary and Gdaughter Amelia?
Di

maudarby
14-10-09, 22:45
Hi Meridian
I think you are referring to the 1861 census.
This is very, very hard to read but could be them, because from memory I think 2 daughters were said to be born at Bloomsbury. The Moses/Morris would have been born in 1846 when Lewis would have been about 12 years old so not a son. If this is the right couple i.e Lewis Levien marrying an Esther Levien then perhaps he is related to her & not him.
Moggie

naomiatt
15-10-09, 04:14
I found this marriage for a Lewis Levien and an Esther Levien
LEVIEN, Lewis LEVIEN, Esther Synagogue. No 50 Margaret St., Cavendish Square
18-Nov-1857 Both the father's are Cabinet Makers.
Surname: LEVIEN
Given Name(s): Esther
Hebrew Name:
Age: 26
Condition: Spinster
Rank or Profession: -
Address: 14 Drury Lane Surname: LEVIEN
Given Name(s): Lewis
Hebrew Name:
Age: full 23
Condition: Bachelor
Rank or Profession: Segar Maker
Address: 27 Cutler Street, Houndsditch
Brides Father Grooms Father
Surname: LEVIEN
Given Name(s): Henry
Hebrew Name:
Condition:
Rank or Profession: Cabinet Maker Surname: LEVIEN
Given Name(s): Solomon
Hebrew Name:
Condition:
Rank or Profession: Cabinet Maker
Brides Mother Grooms Mother
Surname:
Given Name(s):
Hebrew Name: Surname:
Given Name(s):
Hebrew Name:
1st Witness 2nd Witness
Surname: LEVY
Given Name(s): Jacob Surname: LEVIEN
Given Name(s): Immanuel
Minister Notes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Additional Original Record Information
Surname: MARKS
Given Name(s): D W Segar Maker is written but presumably it is Cigar
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Jewish Religion
Record Source Associated Community on the JCR-UK Site
West London Synagogue of British Jews First Register of Marriages and Register of Marriages Book 1 London

naomiatt
15-10-09, 04:57
Just another thought - the Gabriel's might have been Levites - as such, their surname could also show as Levy and not Gabriel - is there anything for a Charlotte Levy/Levi/Levine/Levin marriage?
I've seen a few on BMD to other Levy's. I don't subscribe to the bigger sites.

Meridian Line
15-10-09, 07:52
Just another thought - the Gabriel's might have been Levites - as such, their surname could also show as Levy and not Gabriel - is there anything for a Charlotte Levy/Levi/Levine/Levin marriage?
I've seen a few on BMD to other Levy's. I don't subscribe to the bigger sites.


Naomi,

could you explain about the use of another name.....I haven't done any jewish research before. (Am finding it fascinating though)

Meridian Line
15-10-09, 08:03
Have now looked at the Henry & Rachel Lewin in 1841...

St Giles , Middlesex

Henry Lewin 30 french polisher
Rachel 30
Esther 10
Jacob 6
Emmanuel 5
Midr (?) 3
Lewis 3m ( yet another Lewis Levien!!)

so this looks like the Esther Levien that married Lewis Levien

the witnesses at the wedding must be Rachel's brothers.

In which case Lewis' father is Solomon Levien. We also have a Frances Elizabeth Levien (witness at Levien Thompson wedding) daughter of Solomon. Can we connect Solomon Levien to Levy Gabriel. Is Charlotte Gabriel (dau of Levy) married to Solomon Levien?

Meridian Line
15-10-09, 09:25
Hi Meridian
I think you are referring to the 1861 census.
This is very, very hard to read but could be them, because from memory I think 2 daughters were said to be born at Bloomsbury. The Moses/Morris would have been born in 1846 when Lewis would have been about 12 years old so not a son. If this is the right couple i.e Lewis Levien marrying an Esther Levien then perhaps he is related to her & not him.
Moggie


Thanks Moggie, now corrected

maudarby
15-10-09, 11:24
Hi Naomiatt
That's a brilliant bit of news about the marriage. I knew that I had found somebody living in Drury Lane but couldn't remember who it was. This was the Levien's (transcribed as Levron) address in 1871. I wonder if we can find out who was living there in 1861.
Moggie

maudarby
15-10-09, 11:47
Hi
In 1851 at 14 Drury Lane are Jacob & Rebecca Levy with a nephew Lewis Levien (transcried as Levier) age 19 born c 1832.
In 1861 Jacob & Rebecca Levy are still there & an Emanuel Levien age 23 born c1838 listed as head but living on his own.
Moggie

naomiatt
15-10-09, 11:58
Naomi,

could you explain about the use of another name.....I haven't done any jewish research before. (Am finding it fascinating though)

Hi - this site tells you a lot more about it and naming patterns etc
Judaism 101: Jewish Names (http://www.jewfaq.org/jnames.htm)
In this case, the Gabriel family may have been Levites...as in descend from the Levi tribe....e.g one of my ggm's father is Chaskiel H'Levi for his Hebrew name...his anglicised name was Ezekial - the surname was Davidovitch (son of David)...another was Marks Ogin....he descended from the Cohen's who were priests...and his Hebrew name is Mordechai H'Cohen. As surnames are quite new for Jewish people in the big scheme of things...sometimes two "surnames" could show for the same family...Now I've read that back it sounds really confusing!;-)

Meridian Line
15-10-09, 12:10
Thank you Naomi...clear as mud:).....lol, only joking!! It might be a reason for them using Levien Thompson, instead of just Thompson. I also wonder if James Thompson was a non jew, but the children were practising jews (am I correct in thinking the mother passes on her faith?), & they took Levien (I'm thinking of Henry & John Levien Thompson) because that was a more Jewish name.

Or am I just being ignorant?

Meridian Line
15-10-09, 12:21
The other thing I had an "epiphany" about was....

Could Charlotte Gabriel b ~ 1805-9 , & daughter of Levy, marry James Thompson, then when he dies ( I don't think we've found a death for him or her for that matter), take the surname Levien instead of Thompson?

I've got James & Charlotte in 41, 51 & 61. After that I haven't got either of them, nor a death.
The only thing against this theory is in 1861 there is a Charlotte Lowin (could be Levien) of the correct age, with a daughter Mary Fisher & grandaughter Amelia Fisher, in Marylebone. Although I can't find any of them in any other census.

Has any one alse tracked Charlotte Levien nee Gabriel in any of the other census, apart from the 1881, when she is with her sister Fanny Gabriel?

naomiatt
15-10-09, 12:26
Another one for Drury Lane -
Name
(Other Surnames) Place of Birth
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Place of Death Date of Birth
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date of Death Hebrew Name
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hebrew Date Age
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Burial Date
LEVIEN, Fanny
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
14 Drury Lane
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
18 months
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13-Oct-1870

No Image Available
Plot Spouse Father
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mother Comments Cemetery Name
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
City / Country
Row 15 No 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Balls Pond Cemetery
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
London / England

naomiatt
15-10-09, 12:32
Thank you Naomi...clear as mud:).....lol, only joking!! It might be a reason for them using Levien Thompson, instead of just Thompson. I also wonder if James Thompson was a non jew, but the children were practising jews (am I correct in thinking the mother passes on her faith?), & they took Levien (I'm thinking of Henry & John Levien Thompson) because that was a more Jewish name.

Or am I just being ignorant?

See - I knew it would make sense!!! ; -)
Yes, the faith is carried through the mother - James is definitely not a Jewish name - unless he converted?? - that wouldn't have been an easy task though. Henry was quite common as both a Jewish and non Jewish name, and John could be from Jonathan and it's quite plausible to have kept the Levian name alive...while accepting the surname of the spouse.

naomiatt
15-10-09, 12:41
The other thing I had an "epiphany" about was....

Could Charlotte Gabriel b ~ 1805-9 , & daughter of Levy, marry James Thompson, then when he dies ( I don't think we've found a death for him or her for that matter), take the surname Levien instead of Thompson?

I've got James & Charlotte in 41, 51 & 61. After that I haven't got either of them, nor a death.
The only thing against this theory is in 1861 there is a Charlotte Lowin (could be Levien) of the correct age, with a daughter Mary Fisher & grandaughter Amelia Fisher, in Marylebone. Although I can't find any of them in any other census.

Has any one alse tracked Charlotte Levien nee Gabriel in any of the other census, apart from the 1881, when she is with her sister Fanny Gabriel?

Hi - I don't subscribe to the major sites - but saw these - although the first one clashes with the census
Deaths Mar 1888
________________________________________
LEVIEN Charlotte 81 Mile End
1c 402
_Deaths Dec 1902
________________________________________
Levien Charlotte M 82 St. Geo. H. Sq.
1a 309

This might fit for Fanny
________________________________________Deaths Jun 1894 (>99%)
________________________________________
Gabriel Fanny 77 St. Saviour
1d 93

DiD
15-10-09, 12:50
I am keeping well out of this as I am utterly lost! James uses Levien when he witnesses his son's wedding and perhaps Charlotte dropped the name Thompson after James died and she lived with her sister and perhaps started practising her faith again!?!
I am just glad we have found so many of them.
Di

naomiatt
15-10-09, 12:52
Wonder if this is Gabriel?
Deaths Dec 1865 --------------
Gabriel Levy E. London 1c 8

naomiatt
15-10-09, 13:04
Do we have anything showing for 27 Cutler Street, Houndsditch
where Henry lived when he married Esther of Drury Lane.

naomiatt
15-10-09, 13:11
I am keeping well out of this as I am utterly lost! James uses Levien when he witnesses his son's wedding and perhaps Charlotte dropped the name Thompson after James died and she lived with her sister and perhaps started practising her faith again!?!
I am just glad we have found so many of them.
Di

My gut feeling says that Charlotte's father was a Levi....he is also called Levy...but there's no proof unless we can find a burial or Hebrew marriage authorisation for one of Gabriel's children. I 'think' that Charlotte kept Levien and used Levien and Levien Thompson...just as her husband did.
Yes, she could have dropped the Thompson...It would have been quite a thing for them to 'marry out' of their own 'religions'...

maudarby
15-10-09, 13:16
Do we have anything showing for 27 Cutler Street, Houndsditch
where Henry lived when he married Esther of Drury Lane.

This address was where Fanny Gabriel, Lewis Levien & the Jacobs were living in 1851.
Moggie

maudarby
15-10-09, 13:29
..but there's no proof unless we can find a burial or Hebrew marriage authorisation for one of Gabriel's children.

We think Esther married in 1845 & Elizabeth in 1846.
Moggie

naomiatt
15-10-09, 13:36
This address was where Fanny Gabriel, Lewis Levien & the Jacobs were living in 1851.
Moggie

It all adds up doesn't it.....

DiD
15-10-09, 13:40
Does it?!!!
D

naomiatt
15-10-09, 13:42
..but there's no proof unless we can find a burial or Hebrew marriage authorisation for one of Gabriel's children.

We think Esther married in 1845 & Elizabeth in 1846.
Moggie

The Authorisations start from 1845, so might be in luck...Di - if you want to, you can apply to the Beth Din....I know it costs though...not sure how much.
I've got the address and tel no if you'd like it..and the name of the Archivist.

Must be getting tired Moggie - forgot I sent that marriage for Esther through!! ; -)

DiD
15-10-09, 13:46
Will have the details from you in the morning. Now go to bed!!!!!
Di

DiD
15-10-09, 14:52
So let me get this straight. We know Solomon Levien is Frances Elizabeth's father and also the father of Louis the Cigar Maker. We know they are all related to the Gabriel's but not sure how!!!
Di

Meridian Line
15-10-09, 15:23
So let me get this straight. We know Solomon Levien is Frances Elizabeth's father and also the father of Louis the Cigar Maker. We know they are all related to the Gabriel's but not sure how!!!
Di


Yes that seems correct, Di.

Unless Soloman Levien married a Gabriel (a daughter of Levy),

or Charlotte Gabriel (dau of Levy) married a Levien, & the Charlotte Gabriel who married James Thompson was her cousin.

Meridian Line
15-10-09, 15:26
Di,
Someone on GR has Levy Gabriel & offspring, if you have membership, it might be worth contacting them, or maybe someone else can do it for you.
I'm no longer a member....& I always find they know even less that you, when you make contact, but perhaps I'm getting cynical in my old age :eek:

DiD
15-10-09, 15:48
I think you'll find that's me on GR. Use it as a working tree.
di

Robert Brech
15-10-09, 17:19
Lewis Levien Thompson (1909 - 1949) was my mother's brother. He was born 13-Jan-1909 and died of sunstroke in India on 24-June-1949. His father was Henry Levien Thompson who was born 21-Mar-1886 and died 21-Dec-1928, aged 62. I have dates for Henry's wife and other children if anyone is interested.

Robert Brech
15-10-09, 17:50
I have now read all through this thread and am amazed at how much info you are gathering together. In answer to some earlier queries:

Henry Levien Thompson married Ella Elizabeth Shobridge (30-April-1872 to 01-September-1964). They had three children, Lewis (13-January-1909 to 24-June-1949); Margot (17-April-1910 to October-1999) and Irene (21-Sep-1912 to 06-October-2000).

Margot married Terence Durkin. They had two children, Stephen and Caroline.

Irene married Edward Brech. They had three children, Lorna, Wendy and Robert (me). Let me know if you want further info. I also have some data on the earlier Shobridges.

Meridian Line
15-10-09, 19:46
Welcome to FTF Robert.
Glad you've come along to help :)

Meridian Line
15-10-09, 19:47
I think you'll find that's me on GR. Use it as a working tree.
di



:o....sorry Di, should have realised it was you!!!!

DiD
15-10-09, 21:24
Hi Robert
Knew you'd have to have a look sooner or later!! Mind boggling isn't it!
Di

naomiatt
15-10-09, 21:36
I have now read all through this thread and am amazed at how much info you are gathering together. In answer to some earlier queries:

Henry Levien Thompson married Ella Elizabeth Shobridge (30-April-1872 to 01-September-1964). They had three children, Lewis (13-January-1909 to 24-June-1949); Margot (17-April-1910 to October-1999) and Irene (21-Sep-1912 to 06-October-2000).

Margot married Terence Durkin. They had two children, Stephen and Caroline.

Irene married Edward Brech. They had three children, Lorna, Wendy and Robert (me). Let me know if you want further info. I also have some data on the earlier Shobridges.

Hi Robert - Good to hear from you!
Do you have the marriage certificate for Henry and Ella?
There is another Henry Levien who passed away in 1849 - born c. 1803 - last address was Endell Street, Seven Dials. The first names were often carried down through the family...and Lewis has repeated as well. Lewis is also a variant of the first name Levy...and people who had the surname of Levy, Levi, Levien etc often changed that to Lewis.
Naomi

naomiatt
15-10-09, 21:42
Does it?!!!
D

Go to bed! ; -)

The families at both addresses are linked to each other - one by a definite marriage. Applying for the Hebrew Marriage Authorisation for Esther will help..but ideally, it would be good to find another confirmed marriage as well.
I think the death for Gabriel Levy could well be him....

With a marriage for Charlotte M Levien and Joseph Augustus Levien...do we know when that took place? Has Charlotte Gabriel shown an initial of M anywhere else?

naomiatt
15-10-09, 22:29
Looking at the addresses again and who lived there at some stage;

Cutler Street -

Solomon Levien(cabinet maker)
Lewis Levien (cigar maker) - married Esther Levien of Drury Lane
Fanny Gabriel - Charlotte Gabriel's sister
Jacob and Rebecca Levy - Jacob was a witness to Lewis and Esther's marriage

Drury Lane

Henry Levien (cabinet maker)
Lewis Levien - listed as nephew, so Esther's husband?...
Emmanuel Levien (witness to Lewis and Esther's marriage)
Fanny Levien - born around 1868 - died 1870 aged 18 months
Esther Levien - Henry's daughter
Jacob and Rebecca Levy - had lived here as well

Have I got this right? ; -)

naomiatt
16-10-09, 00:07
I'm not sure if this is connected to Lewis Levien - A 'Louis' Levien was father to a bride -
Sarah Levien - she married Joseph Hart - a furniture broker - of 78 Seymour St, Pancras, in 1882. Sarah and Louis's address was given as 92 Seymour St, Pancras.
Louis was a Confectioner. Her sister, Rachel Levien, married Morris Marks in 1886.
Morris was a school teacher, his father, Israel, was a furniture dealer. I think this might be their brother, Henry Solomon Levien married Hilda Eland in 1904.
I also found a David Levien - his father was Elias Levi - so Levi has been used as Levien** - who married Rosa Simmons in 1862 - David and Elias are glass cutters living in 64 Queens Rd, Chelsea.

Louis Levien was born around 1834 and passed away in 1905.
A Henry Levien was born around 1806 and passed away in 1843.
If the same one, a Henry Levien was a Cabinet Maker in 1836 according to Piggots.
Address was 40 Belton Street, Long Acre.

Found a few other Levien marriages from a marriage site;
Morris PEARL Rachel LEVIEN 06/07/1881 Dukes Place
Benjamin LEVIEN Frances LION 12/07/1881 North London
Caspar Joseph LEVIEN Rose Leah SAMUEL 18/07/1883 Norwich

naomiatt
16-10-09, 00:22
Looking at some Gabriel's in Jewish archives - I've found a few buried in the London area;
Fanny Gabriel - born around 1834, passed away 1905
Levy Gabriel - born around 1857, passed away 1936
Louis Gabriel - born around 1823, passed away 1903

Also,
Michael Gabriel - 14 and 20 Monmouth St, WC - clothes trader in 1836 (Pigots)
Priscilla Francis Gabriel - born around 1872, passed away 1935 - in Birmingham though
Montague GABRIEL married Rosalie GRUNEWALD 07/11/1883 Princes St.
Edward BOSS Betsy GABRIEL 09/07/1884 Great
Morris MARKS Sarah GABRIEL 29/04/1888 Princes Street
Mark TOBIAS Hinda GABRIEL 04/11/1890 Great

naomiatt
16-10-09, 07:52
Hi Louise - re;

Levy Gabriel b 1781

children
Charlotte b 1805 (married a Levien, poss dau is Mary, gdau Amelia)
Michael b 1809
Elizabeth b 1813 ( m Jacobs)
Frances b 1814 unmarried
Esther b 1816 ( m John Cohen )
Priscilla b 1821 ( m Solomon Simmonds a tailor, Jun 1850)

Here's Solomon and Priscilla's marriage as per your info -
Marriages Jun 1850
Simmons Solomon St Lukes 2 344
Gabriel Prescilla St Luke's 2 344

(Rosa Simmons married David Levien in 1862 but it's a common surname)

Esther is coming up as this date, but Jacob Cohen - probably anglicised it to John -
Marriages Mar 1845
Cohen Jacob London 2 168
GABRIEL Esther London 2 168

Elizabeth, I think is this marriage -
Marriages Mar 1846
Gabriel Elizabeth London 2 179
Jacobs Jacob London 2 179

Earliest birth I can see for a Mary Levien on FreeBMD is;-
Births Sep 1852
Levien Mary Elizabeth St George Hanover Square 1a 169

These Levien's also born in the same location not long after this Mary;
Births Jun 1854 LEVIEN Edith Susan S Geo Han Sq 1a 180
Births Mar 1856
LEVIEN Florence Ann St Geo H S 1a 190

Only deaths for Levy Gabriel are;
Deaths Dec 1865
Gabriel Levy E. London 1c 8 and
Deaths Sep 1906
Gabriel Levy 79 Holborn 1b 365

Robert Brech
16-10-09, 09:31
Hi Robert - Good to hear from you!
Do you have the marriage certificate for Henry and Ella?
There is another Henry Levien who passed away in 1849 - born c. 1803 - last address was Endell Street, Seven Dials. The first names were often carried down through the family...and Lewis has repeated as well. Lewis is also a variant of the first name Levy...and people who had the surname of Levy, Levi, Levien etc often changed that to Lewis.
Naomi

I do not have the marriage certificate but I am asking around the family. I have Ella's death certificate.

naomiatt
16-10-09, 09:49
I do not have the marriage certificate but I am asking around the family. I have Ella's death certificate.

That would be great if somebody in the family has the marriage cert. It will provide some more clues to Henry's background e.g name of his father, address at the time etc. Do you have any idea where he was born..or if he had any other initials, and do you know what his occupation was?

DiD
16-10-09, 12:02
Sorry, I thought we knew that Henry's father was George Levien Thompson eldest son of James and Charlotte. Robert's descended from George's marriage to Ann Elizabeth Munns, I come from his second marriage to Lily Dowling of "Mistress" fame!
Di

naomiatt
16-10-09, 22:52
Sorry, I thought we knew that Henry's father was George Levien Thompson eldest son of James and Charlotte. Robert's descended from George's marriage to Ann Elizabeth Munns, I come from his second marriage to Lily Dowling of "Mistress" fame!
Di

Hi - yes, you're right. ;) Was thinking too much about the Gabriel's etc!
Doesn't seem like it, but nearly there with this. If we could just find more on
Charlotte....

DiD
17-10-09, 08:04
One last thing, Henry Levien the Cabinet maker, whose daughter Esther married our Louis Levien the Cigar Maker. Did we ever discover when and where he was born?
Di

naomiatt
17-10-09, 08:36
One last thing, Henry Levien the Cabinet maker, whose daughter Esther married our Louis Levien the Cigar Maker. Did we ever discover when and where he was born?
Di

Not sure. We do know that a Henry Levien died in 1849...and this is on FreeBMD..
Deaths Mar 1843
LEVIEN Henry St Pancras 1 273

I can't see another death using that exact spelling that would fit.

There's lots of Levien's in the London Gazette, but I couldn't see a Henry that would fit the timeframe.

Meridian Line
17-10-09, 12:08
I'm not sure if this is connected to Lewis Levien - A 'Louis' Levien was father to a bride -
Sarah Levien - she married Joseph Hart - a furniture broker - of 78 Seymour St, Pancras, in 1882. Sarah and Louis's address was given as 92 Seymour St, Pancras.
Louis was a Confectioner. Her sister, Rachel Levien, married Morris Marks in 1886.
Morris was a school teacher, his father, Israel, was a furniture dealer. I think this might be their brother, Henry Solomon Levien married Hilda Eland in 1904.

Naomi,

Louis the cigar maker later became a cook & confectioner, & had a daughter Sarah born about 1860, Rachel was born ~ 1865, Henry S ~ 1867.

Meridian Line
17-10-09, 12:29
Naomi,
are the Levien marriages you're finding Jewish?

I've been trying to sort the difference between the Jewish lines & the non Jewish lines.

James Thompson seems to have been non jewish, married to Charlotte Gabriel ( we don't know her pedigree yet, but she seems to be connected to Levy Gabriel & some Leviens).

The following all marry in church...therefore non jews?

Edward & Elizabeth Levien ;their children( Sophia,Julia,Rose)
Ellen Levien of Marylebone dau of John Levien (Esquire) married Henry Charles Deane 12 June 1867.
Nathaniel Levien (gentleman); dau Isabella Amelia married Charles Powis 5th Dec 1839, his son John Augustus married Charlotte Margaret Armstrong on 19th Oct 1840 (this must be Charlotte M Levien).

The folowing were all baptised on 12th Nov 1872, children of Emmanual & Sarah Ann Levien (he is a fishmonger)
Alice Ann
Elizabeth Sarah
Henry Emmanual
Isabella Annie

Also Lewis Levien bp on 15th Jan 1878 to Sarah Levien (no father).

naomiatt
17-10-09, 12:50
Naomi,

Louis the cigar maker later became a cook & confectioner, & had a daughter Sarah born about 1860, Rachel was born ~ 1865, Henry S ~ 1867.

Hi - must be the same people - here's the full info;
186
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
242 Marylebone Middlesex
Date of Marriage English
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date of Marriage Hebrew Place of Marriage
22-Nov-1882
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Synagogue, 34 Upper Berkeley Street, Edgware Road
Bride Groom
Surname: LEVIEN
Given Name(s): Sarah
Hebrew Name:
Age: 23
Condition: Spinster
Rank or Profession: -
Address: 92 Seymour Street, Pancras Surname: HART
Given Name(s): Joseph David
Hebrew Name:
Age: 31
Condition: Bachelor
Rank or Profession: Furniture Broker
Address: 78 Seymour Street, Pancras
Brides Father Grooms Father
Surname: LEVIEN
Given Name(s): Louis
Hebrew Name:
Condition:
Rank or Profession: Confectioner Surname: HART
Given Name(s): David
Hebrew Name:
Condition:
Rank or Profession: Dealer
Brides Mother Grooms Mother
Surname:
Given Name(s):
Hebrew Name: Surname:
Given Name(s):
Hebrew Name:
1st Witness 2nd Witness
Surname: LEVIEN
Given Name(s): Louis Surname: HART
Given Name(s): David
Minister Notes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Additional Original Record Information
Surname: MARKS - CHIEF MINISTER
Given Name(s): D W
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Jewish Religion by Certificate
Record Source Associated Community on the JCR-UK Site
West London Synagogue of British Jews First Register of Marriages and Register of Marriages Book 1 London
Synagogue Register Number Registration District County
47
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
301 Marylebone Middlesex
Date of Marriage English
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date of Marriage Hebrew Place of Marriage
01-Sep-1886
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
West London Synagogue, 34 Upper Berkeley Street, Edgware Road
Bride Groom
Surname: LEVIEN
Given Name(s): Rachel
Hebrew Name:
Age: 21
Condition: Spinster
Rank or Profession: -
Address: 92 Seymour Street Surname: MARKS
Given Name(s): Morris
Hebrew Name:
Age: 23
Condition: Bachelor
Rank or Profession: Schoolmaster
Address: 140 Stepney Green
Brides Father Grooms Father
Surname: LEVIEN
Given Name(s): Louis
Hebrew Name:
Condition:
Rank or Profession: Confectioner Surname: MARKS
Given Name(s): Israel
Hebrew Name:
Condition:
Rank or Profession: Furniture Dealer
Brides Mother Grooms Mother
Surname:
Given Name(s):
Hebrew Name: Surname:
Given Name(s):
Hebrew Name:
1st Witness 2nd Witness
Surname: MARKS
Given Name(s): Israel Surname: LEVIEN
Given Name(s): Louis
Minister Notes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Additional Original Record Information
Surname: HARRIS - SECRETARY & REGISTRAR
Given Name(s): Isidore
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Jewish Religion by Certificate
Record Source Associated Community on the JCR-UK Site
West London Synagogue of British Jews First Register of Marriages and Register of Marriages Book 2

59
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marylebone London
Date of Marriage English
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date of Marriage Hebrew Place of Marriage
16-Oct-1904
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
West London Synagogue
Bride Groom
Surname: ELAND
Given Name(s): Hilda
Hebrew Name:
Age: 23
Condition: Spinster
Rank or Profession: -
Address: 62 Liverpool Road, Islington Surname: LEVIEN
Given Name(s): Henry Solomon
Hebrew Name:
Age: 36
Condition: Bachelor
Rank or Profession: Caterer
Address: 55 Kentish Town Road, St. Pancras
Brides Father Grooms Father
Surname: ELAND
Given Name(s): Julius
Hebrew Name:
Condition:
Rank or Profession: Deceased Surname: LEVIEN
Given Name(s): Louis
Hebrew Name:
Condition:
Rank or Profession: Confectioner & Caterer
Brides Mother Grooms Mother
Surname:
Given Name(s):
Hebrew Name: Surname:
Given Name(s):
Hebrew Name:
1st Witness 2nd Witness
Surname: LEVIEN
Given Name(s): Louis Surname: ELAND
Given Name(s): Emanuel
Minister Notes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Additional Original Record Information
Surname: JOSEPH - OFFICIATING MINISTER
Given Name(s): Morris
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Jewish Religion by Certificate
Record Source Associated Community on the JCR-UK Site
West London Synagogue of British Jews Register of Marriages Book 4

Meridian Line
17-10-09, 12:55
Can anyone make any suggestions to Di and/or Robert that would help identify James & Charlotte?

We seem to be getting bogged down a bit.:wilt:

I think it will probably require some money spent on certificates, maybe the death certs for James & Charlotte, marriage certs for their children, to see if any of the witnesses are of interest.

naomiatt
17-10-09, 13:09
Naomi,
are the Levien marriages you're finding Jewish?

I've been trying to sort the difference between the Jewish lines & the non Jewish lines.

James Thompson seems to have been non jewish, married to Charlotte Gabriel ( we don't know her pedigree yet, but she seems to be connected to Levy Gabriel & some Leviens).

The following all marry in church...therefore non jews?

Edward & Elizabeth Levien ;their children( Sophia,Julia,Rose)
Charlotte Levien of Bethnal Green daughter of John Levien (pipemaker) married Robert Bodmin a bricklayer on 9th March 1871.
Ellen Levien of Marylebone dau of John Levien (Esquire) married Henry Charles Deane 12 June 1867.
Nathaniel Levien (gentleman); dau Isabella Amelia married Charles Powis 5th Dec 1839, his son John Augustus married Charlotte Margaret Armstrong on 19th Oct 1840 (this must be Charlotte M Levien).

The folowing were all baptised on 12th Nov 1872, children of Emmanual & Sarah Ann Levien (he is a fishmonger)
Alice Ann
Elizabeth Sarah
Henry Emmanual
Isabella Annie

Also Lewis Levien bp on 15th Jan 1878 to Sarah Levien (no father).

Hi - yes, the marriages I've found in length are definitely Jewish - the other ones I got from FreeBMD, but you sort of get used to the Jewish names.
I don't believe that James was Jewish at all - and I've a hunch that Charlotte was..and is probably the daughter of Levy Gabriel...in the Jewish faith, the religion is carried down by the mother...so even if she married a non Jew, her children would always be Jewish, although, they might have difficulty marrying in an orthodox synagogue. A lot of people converted as well.
With the names you have, it's hard to say if some were Jewish or not -
Edward & Elizabeth Levien ;their children( Sophia,Julia,Rose) - 50/50
Charlotte Levien of Bethnal Green daughter of John Levien (pipemaker) married Robert Bodmin a bricklayer on 9th March 1871. - probably not
Ellen Levien of Marylebone dau of John Levien (Esquire) married Henry Charles Deane 12 June 1867. - probably not
Nathaniel Levien (gentleman); dau Isabella Amelia married Charles Powis 5th - Nathaniel might have been, but not Charles
John Augustus married Charlotte Margaret Armstrong on 19th Oct 1840 (this must be Charlotte M Levien). - unlikely

The folowing were all baptised on 12th Nov 1872, children of Emmanual & Sarah Ann Levien (he is a fishmonger)
Alice Ann
Elizabeth Sarah
Henry Emmanual
Isabella Annie
- Emmanuel could have been Jewish, 50/50 with Sarah Ann

Also Lewis Levien bp on 15th Jan 1878 to Sarah Levien (no father) -
50/50

Some Jewish people changed their religion, wanted to conform, hide, fit in etc
Also, if they did 'marry out' then it would also depend on how strong the pressure was from the other side....could be from a strict Catholic family for example.

naomiatt
17-10-09, 13:24
Can anyone make any suggestions to Di and/or Robert that would help identify James & Charlotte?

We seem to be getting bogged down a bit.:wilt:

I think it will probably require some money spent on certificates, maybe the death certs for James & Charlotte, marriage certs for their children, to see if any of the witnesses are of interest.

Yes, death certs...inc for Levy Gabriel....and marriages..........

Meridian Line
18-10-09, 19:16
Can't let this go.....

Esther Thompson b 1839 Lambeth, sister to George Levien, I think I've found her after her marriage.
Witness to Michael Thompson Levien marriage to Louisa Farthing at St Pancras Parish Church on 1st Oct 1866, is Esther Dunthorne.

I can't find the actual marriage, but she married a William Dunthorne, a French Polisher ( b ~1836 St Pancras to William & Jane).
They have a daughter Julia b Dec q 1859 Pancras.
Julia marries John Draper Sep q 1876, & has a son also John Draper b 1879, the husband seems to have died by 1881, as Julia & son John are with her parents. Julia has remarried to a John Strandling by 1891.
William Dunthorne dies Dec q 1885 St George H Sq, & Esther Dunthorne d Sep q 1894 age 55.

Just shows how important marriage certs. are. I found this marriage on Ancestry.com at my local library.

DiD
18-10-09, 21:19
Brilliant, many thanks.
Di

DiD
18-10-09, 21:22
Wonder what it is with all the French Polishers!!!
Di

DiD
19-10-09, 15:49
Hi Louise
Cannot see a marriage for Julia Draper and John Strandling!
Di

Meridian Line
19-10-09, 21:31
No Di, I couldn't either, but she is with him in the next census, & her surname is Standling/Strandling (sorry can't remember which), & her son John Draper is down as a boarder (poor lad!).

The marriage for Julia Dunthorne & John Draper I checked at the library today. He was a carpenter & his father was William Draper also a carpenter. William & Esther were witnesses.
I found William Dunthornes baptism & his siblings if you want them.

I had another look at the marriages. Henry L Thompson & Jane Bennet, the first witness is W.Dunthorne (pretty difficult to read, but now I know the name I can make it out).2nd witness we already knew was Frances Elizabeth Levien. Jane's sister married shortly before her, on 7th May 1866 at St mary's Battersea, Elizabeth Bennet 24, to Samuel Finch 28, Boot maker, fathers, Reuban Finch, miller & Edward Bennet, gardener, witnesses were Jane Bennet & the parish clerk.

The death certificate of Charlotte Levien, who we think is daughter of Levy Gabriel, would possibly give her husbands name, the person who registered the death also sometimes gives a relationship detail. Of course there's always a chance you get no info.
I think Charlotte's death is the March q 1888 at Mile End.

If Lewis Levien the son of Solomon, is a grandson of Levy Gabriel (he was staying with Levy in 1841), then Charlotte could be his mother.
The wills of Charlotte Levien, Frances Gabriel, Michael Gabriel & Esther Cohen would be very useful if you could find them. Frances, Esther & Michael seemed to be childless, & therefore possibly left money to neices & nephews, so you might get a few more names & relationships.

DiD
19-10-09, 22:13
Many thanks for taking such an interest in my family, I have been trying to find Julia and Elizabeth Levien Thompson today, but Julia seems to disappear between 1851 and 61 and yet I can't find a death or a marriage.
Di

naomiatt
20-10-09, 08:46
Hi all - I just received this information from the post I'd made;

Hello Naomi,

"The marriage register of London's Great Synagogue records the marriage of:

23 Oct 1805 -
Levy Gabriel (Lipman ben Ya'acov) to Judith Barnet (Yetta bat Mikhael Zissel).

The register also records:

26 Mar 1845: Esther G. (Ester bat Eliezer Lipman) & Jacob Cohen (Ya'acov b. Moshe ha-Cohn)

18 Mar 1846 : Elizabeth G. (Brynah b. Eliezer) & Jacob Jacobs (Ya'acov b. Chayim Dov)

30 Apr 1850: Priscilla G. (Shprintsa b. Eliezer Lipman) & Solomon Simmons (Shlomeh b. Yosef)

If Levy G. had been a Levite, it would have been recorded in the register with Ha-Levi or sg"l.

His full Hebrew name was Eliezer haMechune Lipman ben Ya'acov.
HaMechune means 'also known as'. Lipman was a so-called 'kinui'.

Lipman had at least two sisters: Charlotte (Channah) and Rebecca (Rebkah). Jacob Gabriel (Ya'acov ben Gabriel) was buried on 29 Sep 1815; this may have been their father. It may have been a brother, Lazarus Gabriel (Lezer ben Gabriel) who was buried on 21 Feb 1821.

I would also deduce that Charlotte wanted to retain some reference to her father in her married name. I assume that she had 'married out'.
JL"

I've replied to JL - as there is discrepancy with Levy Gabriel and Charlotte..daughter or sibling? I also sent JL the two deaths for Levy Gabriel - unless there were two Charlottes - one a sister of
Levy and one a daughter??
Deaths Dec 1865
Gabriel Levy E. London 1c 8 and
Deaths Sep 1906
Gabriel Levy 79 Holborn 1b 365

and I've since heard back;-
"The info I gave you on the Gabriel family does not contradict your information. You have the civil marriage registrations; I was able to give you the information directly from the synagogue registers.

Assuming you have the Gabriel family in the 1841 census, I am sure you are right that Levy G had a daughter named Charlotte. However, there is no contradiction in the fact that he had a sister of the same name.
Both were no doubt named after the same deceased ancestor; a grandmother for example.

What records do you have for Charlotte's marriage to JT?

I would say that 'your' LG died in 1865, NOT 1906. Assuming that he was born in about 1780, there is little possibility that he lived to be 126!!

The 1906 death was most likely a grandson or nephew born.

Have a good search through this fabulous database.

http://jgsgb.org.uk/1851/An_1851_Study1.asp

You can piece together quite a large Gabriel family with certain names reoccurring over several generations."

I've also looked up the name Lipman -
Recorded in several spellings including Leverman, Liberman, Liebmann, Liepmann, Lipman, Lipmann, Lippman, Lipman, and Lipmanovicz, this is an English, German, Polish, and sometimes Jewish surname of German origins. It is derives from the pre 8th century word and baptismal given name "Lieb" or "Lib" meaning good or beloved, plus the suffix "man or mann" which in this context means friend or servant of Lieb. The words lieb and lib are to be found in both ancient German and Hebrew, making it even more difficult to decide the precise origin.
Below are the kinnuims for Lipman - Levien sounding very much like Leverman if you pretend you are speaking in Yiddish! ; -) and basically a derivative of her father's name - Levy - although he wasn't H'Levi as I thought originally.
Eliezer/Lazer Feyvush/Faibish; Lipman; Zalman; Zusman/Susman; Selig/Zelik; Helftott; Fuks
Now it looks like there are two Charlotte's - one being Charlotte who married James T, and the other her aunt. Michael Gabriel seems to be named after his maternal grandfather - Mikhael.
Normally he would have been named after his paternal grandfather, Jacob, but Jacob was still alive when he was born so this implies Judith's father was not alive at that time.

DiD
20-10-09, 14:41
Wow!
Di

DiD
20-10-09, 16:18
Now I wish I had never started! Looking through Naomi's Jewish Database, what do I find but a Frances Gabriel married to Michael Gabriel with a son Lewis Gabriel and where are they living 9, Upper Woburn Place!!!
Di

DiD
20-10-09, 16:25
If we think Levy Gabriel was the one who died in 1865, has anybody forund in the 1851 and 61 censuses?
Di

Meridian Line
20-10-09, 19:34
Well done, Naomi, thats very useful information. The Hebrew names are fascinating, & must make Jewish research a little challenging!!....as we are finding out:).

Di, I'd seen Michael & Frances in the 61, but not the 51, I didn't know he had a son Lewis. In 71, Michael is with his sisters Esther Cohen (widow) & Frances Gabriel.

I'm trawing through the Times online for sightings of Leviens...so far have found.

The will dated April 24th 1874 of Michael Gabriel, late of No. 9 Upper Woburn Place, Russel Square, died 3rd October last, was proved by Solomon Philips & Louis Levien , the acting executers, under £14,000.

Michael Gabriel is said to be "independent" in one of the census, which ususally means he "has money", I don't think he could be the son of Levy the tailor, but possibly Levy was his uncle.

naomiatt
20-10-09, 21:15
Well done, Naomi, thats very useful information. The Hebrew names are fascinating, & must make Jewish research a little challenging!!....as we are finding out.
**************************************************
Louise - challenging is being very polite! ; -) Pain in the &$#@*!! Sometimes it's easier looking for Smith! Must say though, that 1851 database is really good.....shows addresses and all sorts.....

Be great to find a marriage for Charlotte - it wouldn't have been in a synagogue...and I doubt that James converted...were there registry type weddings at that time? Would there be banns? Maybe they went off to Gretna Green! ;-)

DiD
20-10-09, 21:31
Hi Naomi
Is there any way we can find out if Michael Gabriel 1791-1875 is the brother of Levy?
Di

naomiatt
20-10-09, 22:23
Hi Naomi
Is there any way we can find out if Michael Gabriel 1791-1875 is the brother of Levy?
Di

I'll see if I can find something - there are two on the 1851 database site - the one for 1875 lived at Dukes Place, Herbert St and Woburn Place - and he was a china agent in 1850 and 1860. Discrepancy on his birth year. The other one lived in Holywell St in 1850, born 1825, with poss parents of Gabriel and Martha. There is a Martha born 1790. Also a Levy Gabriel who is poss his brother, born 1828, and a Levy Gabriel born 1834, parents prob Gabriel Gabriel and Sarah Levy. There are also a few others that could be the children of Gabriel and Martha.
http://jgsgb.org.uk/1851/An_1851_Study1.asp?cmd=reset

naomiatt
20-10-09, 22:54
There is a will for Michael Gabriel who died in 1875 - this is in the Jewish Chronicle;-"will, dated April 24th, 1874, of Mr. Michael Gabriel, late of 9, Upper Woburn-place, Russell Square" - 17th December 1875 edition
and there was a notice;
"and letters of condolences received on the occasion of the death of his late lamented uncle, Michael GabrieL 9, Upper Woburn Place, " 22nd October 1875 edition.

This is mentioned in the earlier posts.

naomiatt
20-10-09, 23:06
There is a notice for a Levy Gabriel;
.On the 20th inst, at Sun-street, Finsbury, Levy Gabriel, aged 98, deeply lamented by his.... 22nd December 1865 edition of the JC - so born around 1767.
This family and Michael's must have been pretty well off to put notices in the JC.
Levy lived to a good age for those times.

naomiatt
21-10-09, 07:22
I've been sent the links for these notices - they only last a few weeks, so you have to printscreen - but I didn't tell you that! ; -)

thejc.com - The JC - View an email to friend (http://archive.thejc.com/search/reml.jsp?etaf=5827-1256102369306)

thejc.com - The JC - View an email to friend (http://archive.thejc.com/search/reml.jsp?etaf=5828-1256102638169)

thejc.com - The JC - View an email to friend (http://archive.thejc.com/search/reml.jsp?etaf=5829-1256102952121)

October 22nd, 1875
"Mr. Joshua M. Gabriel returns thanks and visits for letters of condolences received on the occasion on the death of his lamented uncle, Michael Gabriel- 9 Upper-Woburn Place, W.C."
Isn't there a song - Who is Joshua, what is he!! ; -)

DiD
21-10-09, 08:26
Although I can see both those Michael Gabriels on the '51 database, I can't see ours, son of Levy and brother of Charlotte and Fanny!!
Di

naomiatt
21-10-09, 10:01
Hi all - just heard from JL again -
I wonder if LG was 88, rather than 98. It seems strange that he would have
been pushing 40 when he married and was 10 years younger in the 1841
census.
Who was lamenting his death?
Who was lamenting Michael's death? I feel fairly certain that this
68-year-old was Levy's son. There was a Michael (b. c1791) in the 1851
census. He was most likely Levy's brother, although I can find no proof.
At this stage I am speculating that Solomon
Levien (cabinet maker ??) was a son of John Levien, he being the only male
line that remained in England. The Gabriel-Levien-Thompson connection,
however, remains a mystery.

Meridian Line
21-10-09, 16:17
The plot thickens!!

Well done again Naomi!

1881; 24 College Place Marylebone

Joshua M Gabriel lodger unmarried 25 living on income from house profit
born Sidney,Australia!!!

I had a feeling we were going to shift continents, because the Times Archives mentioned a Levien, who was a cabinet maker in New Zealand, seemed like a co-incidence, the number of cabinet makers we've already found.
I wonder if Joshua inherited money from Uncle Michael?

Meridian Line
21-10-09, 16:29
1891; marlborough Buildings, Chelsea
Joshua M Gabriel 35 living on own means, b Tasmania Hubert (?) Town

Jun 1895
marriage Joshua Myers Gabriel registered at Pancras & also Marylebone, with 2 registration numbers, the same as Dora Brandt, so assume he married her.

doh!!
1851;
Michael Gabriel
Frances Gabriel
Joshua M Gabriel 6 visitor b Hobert Town (could be Hubert)....how could I have missed that before:eek:

Meridian Line
21-10-09, 17:54
1901; St Helier, Jersey, Channel Islands

William Gabriel 44 living on own means Tasmania Australia
Dora Gabriel 24
Theodore 4
Constance 2

Theodore William Gabriel b Sep q 1896 Pancras

naomiatt
21-10-09, 20:49
Hi all - JL has made a tree from the info gathered...if you PM myself or Di, we can send it direct to your private e mail.

naomiatt
21-10-09, 21:24
Hi Louise - there are heaps of Gabriel's and will be lots of Levien - bmd - in NSW -
NSW Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages - Historical Index Search (http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/Index/IndexingOrder.cgi/search?event=births)
This info for Tasmania -
Births Deaths and Marriages : Indexes (http://www.justice.tas.gov.au/bdm/family_history/indexes)
These are on the Tasmanian Pioneer Index
Archives Search Portal (http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=8) (dare I say it - there's a Charlotte!;-) - born Hobart 1856)
On line name indexes http://www.archives.tas.gov.au/nameindexes;
•Wills - covers wills and letters of administration of estates registered for probate
•Tasmanian convicts - indexes all convicts transported to Tasmania and those convicted locally through the convict system
•Departures - indexes people leaving Tasmanian ports
•Arrivals - indexes passengers and ships arriving, mainly in Hobart;
•General index - indexes contents of a range of records, mainly names, but some subjects;
•Inquests - indexes records of inquests into people's deaths from the 1820s to the 1920s - inquests into fires are indexed in the 'general index'.
•Census index - covers people (householders) in the 1840s and 1850s.
•Naturalisations - covers people applying to become citizens up to 1904
•Convict applications for permission to marry - covers convicts applying to marry free people or other convicts
•Divorces - covers people getting divorced up to 1920
•Colonial Tasmanian Family Links database - is not a direct index to records but contains a large amount of information (not necessarily verified) about Tasmanian families.
Being over here, I've got loads of sites that I can put forward...
for NZ and Aus...this is a good newspaper site (1803 onwards) covers Aus and NZ etc but lots of notices for the UK NLA Australian Newspapers (http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home) and
for NZ and Aus Papers Past (http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast)
Not sure if Joshua was born in Sydney or Hobart..
There's a great drawing of a George Levien in Papers Past...plus lots on the surname..births etc etc

Meridian Line
21-10-09, 21:25
Very interesting info Naomi, Di sent me a copy, thank you.

The Hobart Town, Tasmania connection is interesting.

Joshua Meyer Gabriel was born in Hobart Town, Tas. ~ 1855, he is a "visitor" to Michael & Frances Gabriel in London in 1861, age 6, and describes Michael as "uncle" in the death announcement.

In 1857 in Hobart Town there is a newspaper advertisement for a Gustavas Gabriel, dentist, who has received a batch of brand new surgical instruments. Gustavas marries in January 1859 in HT, he is described at the 3rd son of L.Gabriel Ludgate Hill,London.
In 1863 an advert in a HT paper says Gustavas Gabriel, surgical & Mechanical Dentist of Gabriel & Sons of London, Liverpool & Birmingham, (he is about to leave Tasmania). He has children born 1860 & 62 in Tas, & 73,75,76, & 1878 in Sydney.

So is Joshua Meyer Gabriel a son of Gustavas, whose first wife died, & joshua was sent back to England to be cared for by Michael & Frances?

It gets more interesting when I found a dentist in Ludgate Hill, London...

Mayer Albert b 1812, surgeon dentist married Rebecca Catherine Davis (1821-1879) Jun 1840.
They had the following children, all at Ludgate Hill
Louisa Amelia b Jun 1841
Edward Meyer b Sep 1842
Emma Fanny b Sep 1844, d Mar 1845
John Gabriel b Jun 1846 , d Jun 1909
James Valck b Mar 1848, d Dec 1919
Alfred Samuel ALbert b Sep 1849
Adolphus Ephraim Albert b Jun 1851, d Mar 1930
Frederick Michael b Dec 1852
Katharine Rachael b Jun 1857
Sidney Herbert David b Sep 1859, d Mar 1874
Henry Louis b Dec 1861
Beatrice Diana b Jun 1864

All the boys became dentists.

There is a possibilty Louisa Amelia married a Jacob Levien Jun 1865, but I haven't found them yet.

Meridian Line
21-10-09, 21:28
Naomi,
I'd found the Charlotte Gabriel in Tas!

Married to John (he died 1885 age 76), & had sons Joseph & Robert, both chemist & druggists.

naomiatt
21-10-09, 22:17
You're doing good Louise!

I've just be sent this from a man called PC -
1 Lyon (Lion/Leon) GABRIEL b: 1787 in Amsterdam, Holland d: 1866 in London, England
.. +Adelaide ? b: 1805 in Brussels, Belgium m: Unknown d: 28 Nov 1877 in Liverpool, Lancashire, England
....... 2 Maurice GABRIEL b: 1832 in London, England d: 1889 in Paddington, London, England
........... +Esther MYERS b: 1833 in Chelsford, Essex, England m: 26 Feb 1862 in London, England d: Unknown
....... 2 Harriet GABRIEL b: 1836 in Hull, Yorkshire, England d: Unknown
........... +John H EMANUEL b: 1832 in London, England m: 22 Nov 1865 in London, England d: Unknown
....... 2 Henry GABRIEL b: 1837 in Hull, Yorkshire, England d: Unknown
........... +Catherine (Kate) LEVY b: 1844 in London, England m: 17 Feb 1864 in London, England d: Unknown
....... 2 Adolph (Arnold) GABRIEL b: 1838 in Hull, Yorkshire, England d: 11 Sep 1896
........... +Jane SEWILL b: 20 May 1839 in Liverpool, Lancashire, England m: Oct 1857 in Liverpool, Lancashire, England d: 09 Jul
1930
....... 2 Joanna GABRIEL b: Abt. 1839 d: Unknown
........... +Michael Levy ROMBERG b: Unknown m: 01 Jul 1860 in London, England d: Unknown
....... 2 John GABRIEL b: 1840 in Hull, Yorkshire, England d: 26 Oct 1916 in Cape Town, South Africa
........... +Maud (Mary) HYMAN b: 1847 in Plymouth, Devon, England m: 1868 in Birmingham, Warwickshire, England d: Aft. 1927
....... 2 Caroline GABRIEL b: 1841 in Hull, Yorkshire, England d: Unknown
........... +Willem VAN STRAATEN b: 1833 m: 09 Aug 1877 in London, England d: Unknown
....... 2 Rose GABRIEL b: 1841 in Liverpool, Lancashire, England d: Unknown
........... +Hermann GREEN b: 1839 m: 05 Sep 1871 in London, England d: Unknown
....... 2 Celina (Selina) GABRIEL b: 1844 in Liverpool, Lancashire, England d: Unknown
........... +Samuel (NEUMANN) NEWMAN b: 1847 in Germany m: 29 Dec 1876 in London, England d: Unknown
....... 2 Solomon GABRIEL b: 1844 in Liverpool, Lancashire, England

He asked if anything looks familiar......

DiD
21-10-09, 22:25
Now you really have lost me! I can see a Myers in there amongst all the Gabriels, there are also a lot of them in Wales, they'll be joining in next!!
Di

naomiatt
22-10-09, 00:22
Now you really have lost me! I can see a Myers in there amongst all the Gabriels, there are also a lot of them in Wales, they'll be joining in next!!
Di

and...just so you get more lost! ;) - I posted this a long time ago -
in connection to the UK and Aus as well...with Levien's...

Does anything spring out from PC's info or this below? Since posting, I have found out some more....we could be calling you Dame Di soon!

Emanuel SOLOMON married Sophia LEVIEN. They had two known children, Julian Emanuel (became Sir Julian SALOMONS) born c.1830/6 in Edgbaston, Birmingham, Warwickshire, and Adelaide born around c.1839.
The closest birth I could find was for an Adelaide SALOMONS, born St Luke, Middlesex, 1837. I'm not sure what happened to Emanuel but he is mentioned as being late of Birmingham in an obituary for Julian. I've not found burial details for him nor a re-marriage.

Sophia MISSEL nee SOLOMONS, born c.1811, passed away, October, 1898 in Maida Vale. She had re-married in Manchester, 1852, to Benjamin MISSELL. Sophia's known sisters were Annette A LEVIEN m Phillip J COHEN in Sydney, 1833, Matilda Phillipa LEVIEN m Samuel A JOSEPH in Sydney,
1856 and Henrietta Matilda GOLDSMITH-LEVIEN m (Sir) Saul SAMUEL in 1857.
She may have previously been married to Edward SALOMON in 1839, again in Sydney.

Adelaide SALOMONS married Adolphe LANDSTEIN in Liverpool, 1866.
She passed away in Paddington, 1901. Their son, Joseph E LANDSTEIN married Bertha SPIRA in Westminster, 1909.

Julian SALOMONS married his first cousin, Louisa SOLOMON, at Lower Edmonton,Middlesex, 1862. Julian passed away in Sydney, 1909 - Hebrew name Yechiel son of Menachem. Louisa, born August, 1837, Whitechapel, passed away in Sydney, January, 1912. Hebrew name Golda daughter of Mordechai. According to the JC, she was the fourth daughter of Maurice SOLOMON, of Shrubbery Villas, Lower Edmonton. I've not been able to deduce when Maurice passed away, nor the names of his other children. All of the above names could be connected to a LEWIS family that were in the UK, U.S, Australia and New Zealand.

naomiatt
22-10-09, 02:49
Hi Louise - wonder if this is Gustavas Gabriel, wife Louisa, and some of the children -
2106 1890-05-30 Gabriel Gustavus 5 181 n/a born 8 July 1835 at London, England; Freemason, husband, father; erected by his brethren and companions. Gavriel ben Yehuda B Rookwood Sydney, NSW
3388 1910-07-13 Gabriel Edward Arnold 8B 232 44 husband of Ella; son of Louisa and Gustavus (dec); same stone 233. Eliezer ben Gavriel 1B Rookwood Sydney, NSW
3141 1914-06-07 Gabriel Adelaide 5B 112 n/a eldest daughter of Louisa and late Gustavus. Rosa bat Gavriel 2B Rookwood Sydney, NSW
3768 1914-11-13 Gabriel Sydney Henry 12A 195 n/a 4th son of Louisa and late Gustavus. Zvi ben Gavriel 3A Rookwood Sydney, NSW
3724 1915-06-29 Gabriel Adolph 10A 151 78 husband of Martha. Avraham ben Gavriel 3A Rookwood Sydney, NSW
157 1915-08-22 Gabriel Frederick George n/a 5 n/a Pte 22, 18th Batt. n/a n/a Lone Pine (A&NZ) Gallipoli, Anzac Cove
6855 1925-07-25 Gabriel Louisa 5 100 84 wife of late Gustavus Gabriel; our mother. Leah bat Reuven 6 Rookwood Sydney, NSW

naomiatt
22-10-09, 03:29
Besides Gabriel's, there are lots of Levien's in here - you have to restrict years using the box as only 10 to a page come up - I've got the sites for the various cemeteries where they are - BD-BD Jewish Burial Data for Australasia (http://ajhs.info/cemetery/)
Rookwood also has some photo's of stones, so if you look at Gustavas wife for example, there are three images Home :: Rookwood Jewish Cemetery, Sydney, NSW, Australia, Jewish Cemetery Trust (http://www.rookwoodjewishcemetery.com.au/)
I'm not quite sure where Joseph is....

In the beta site, there is a chemist, Joseph Gabriel - there's quite a few Joseph's and lots of Gabriel's, Levien's etc...if this is him, maybe he stayed on in Melbourne? Could be a red herring -
The Argus (Melbourne,... Wednesday 14 December 1887, page 13. News 171 words
... ILLEGAL SALE OF POISON. Joseph Gabriel, chemist of Victoria-street Colling-wood, was 11 in. wood waa charged under the 10th section of ot the Pharmacy harlin«. Act, at the local court tilt on Tuesday, with willi selling a poison ti wit 1 ou.li in Kits without c .using the purch iser to sign his...