Help with deciphering 17th century will

[Mary from Italy]

I've recently downloaded a will dating from 1652, which is a bit earlier than I'm used to. I'm not doing too badly with deciphering it, but there are a few words I can't make out.

Can anyone read the first few words in the second line of this extract?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3576/3363831963_30abf8f9c9_o.jpg

The sentence begins: "Also I give unto my grandchild Anne P... one..., and all other wills ..." and it's followed by the signatures of the testatrix Isabell Jackson and the witnesses.

[Harrys mum]

Could be way out here, Mary....lol

Does the second line you have there follow on from the first or is there more on the end of the top line????

I can see.....

Much the same as you.

Anne ???? ??? ????? and all other wills ???, Isabell Jackson, Thomas ??


I suppose it's Anne's surname you want??lol

Does the rest of it make sense??? Sometimes if you get the gist, the rest sort of fits in....lol

[kes_hill]

Mary could the other witness be Thomas Hilton or Thomas Clifton??

[kylejustin]

looks like "anne palmr? one forest?" looks like a 'c' like thomas clifton, could it be house? "and all other wills....." isabell and thomas' signatures.

[KiteRunner]

I think it might be "and all other wills void". I thought at first that the beginning of the line said "Anne Pale(?) one house" but it seems unlikely it would just say "one house" without specifying which one!

[Tony Cummings]

Ann Pale our house and all other wills void.

[Mary from Italy]

The second line follows on from the first. The witness is Thomas Clifton, it's the part before that I couldn't read.

"All other wills void" sounds good - I kept reading it as "all other wills aside".

It's Anne's surname that's the real problem. The name appears two or three times in the will - I have a couple of possible candidates, but it doesn't look like either of them.

The part after her name might be "one favor", but I don't think that means anything. I guess "house" is a possibility, but it does seem odd that it isn't specified. And they would normally say "messuage" at that time, I would have thought. There's no other mention of real estate in the will.

Judging by other words in the will, the squiggle at the beginning of the word could be "ch".

[Mary from Italy]

I guess it must be Anne Pale. That's not the surname I was expecting :)

Just starting on Isabell's husband's will, which is much harder to read than hers, and it does look more like Pale in his will. He refers to his daughter Anne Pale? wife of John Pale?, who I will now start looking for.

[Mary from Italy]

To go back to the question of whether Isabell left Anne a house, would women be entitled to own land in their own right in those days? Isabell was a widow when she died.

[Harrys mum]

Mary........................I have several females being left houses and land in OH's tree, and often left in their own right, with their husbands not having any claim.

They often in turn left them to their daughters.

One of OH's specified the main house was to be given to the daughter but must stay in the family surname. She was single at the time. She later married and her husband changed his name to hers.



PS........off to Tenterfield tomorrow (Thursday) if you've found anything you want looked at.

[Harrys mum]

The "house" isn't an "out house" is it????

Don't laugh.....I have several out houses in wills. They seem to be smaller houses on the same property.

[Penelope]

Even in the Middle Ages, let alone post Civil War, women could own property and even run a business - if willed to them by their father or husband. (I read some fascinating thing about the medieval silkwomen whose husbands had the trade of weavign silk braids and if they died, the wives could continue running the business exactly the same). You have to remember the 1650s is the aftermath of 'the world turned upsidedown' - the country was littered with widows, and women having to manage on their own, and pull things together after all the chaos of the Civil War.

I also agree it says "one House" but think that there's some superscript going on, (small letter above the end of her surname) which may mean a standard abbreviation, on Anne's surname? Could be her name is 'Palot' or something else, but that looks like superscript, to me?

[Mary from Italy]

Ah, thanks, I had the impression women didn't have many property rights in those days.


The "house" isn't an "out house" is it????

That's a thought - I wouldn't absolutely rule it out, although it looks more like "one" to me.

I don't need anything at Tenterfield at the moment, but thanks very much for asking.

Have a good trip :)

[Mary from Italy]

Even in the Middle Ages, let alone post Civil War, women could own property and even run a business - if willed to them by their father or husband.

OK, thanks for the confirmation.


I also agree it says "one House" but think that there's some superscript going on, (small letter above the end of her surname) which may mean a standard abbreviation, on Anne's surname? Could be her name is 'Palot' or something else, but that looks like superscript, to me?


That was my original thought, because a squiggle at the end of the word like that can be a standard abbreviation. However, in this will, words that actually do end in an "e" like "give" sometimes end with a similar squiggle.

I can't find a suitable John Pale anywhere - so far I've tried the IGI, TNA and Google web/book search.

I thought it might be Pavier, because the two families intermarried, but it doesn't really look like it.

[KiteRunner]

Are there any other words in the will that begin with a capital F or H so you can see which matches the letter at the beginning of the word that may or may not be "house"? It looks more like an F to me but I can't think what it would be if so.

[Janet]

I would agree that Anne's surname has a letter written small which does indicate that the name should be longer than the Pale suggested by others. though not very clear as to what the name might be.

If you look at the word "This" in "This my last will and Testamount" it looks a little like the end of Anne's surname so could Anne's surname be Palis?

Janet

[Mary from Italy]

Are there any other words in the will that begin with a capital F or H so you can see which matches the letter at the beginning of the word that may or may not be "house"? It looks more like an F to me but I can't think what it would be if so.

Words beginning with F: there's "February", but the F just looks like "ff".

Words beginning with H: there's "Henry", but it's completely different - the first letter looks almost like "Ly".

However, the beginning of the word which might be "house" looks exactly like the beginning of "chattels".

[Mary from Italy]

Have to do some work now - back later.

[Harrys mum]

It's not "chest" is it??? I've a lot with tea chests, but they have "my mahogany tea chest" or "my silver tea chest"....none have just "chest".

[KiteRunner]

It couldn't be "Cowe", could it? Meaning "cow"? Did she leave anyone else anything like that? "Void" seems to have an e stuck on the end of it so I suppose other words might too?

[Just Barbara]

It's all other willd.......somethings? Also her name isn't Pale, it's something like Pallot I think, spelling was still a bit how you fancied, so dialect affected how you said a word and how you spelt it.

[Janet]

It could also be "one horse" instead of one house. Certainly the e at the end looks the same as the e in give.

I have a will where a pony and a horse are involved.

Janet

[Penelope]

Where's my book on old handwriting when I need it!

It does look like 'House' to me, though...

[Mary from Italy]

It couldn't be "Cowe", could it? Meaning "cow"? Did she leave anyone else anything like that? "Void" seems to have an e stuck on the end of it so I suppose other words might too?


Yes, that's a thought - she left a heifer to her manservant, and a lot of words do have an extra "e" on the end.

She left her son Henry "All the rest of my goods, quicke and dead". Lucky man :)

[Phoenix]

A circle with a cross through it is usually a C

I'd go with Anne Pale one Cowe. I can't see any sign that the surname has been abbreviated and the terminal e is the same as in "voide" just as the C in Cowe is the same as the C in Clifton.

[Penelope]

That could be a H or C in secretary script, eh, but the end letter doesn't look the same as the 'e' in 'voide'. Could be wrong, though as his e might not be consistent!

Ah found my little book on secretary hand. That abbreviation looks remarkably like the one for '-r', but he says if there's superscript that impleis the middle of a word ommitted, so rather than 'Paler' (which has no ellipsis) it would have to be something like 'Palliser' - where a whole central part of the word is missed out. If that makes sense! Anyone who has !A Secretary Hand ABC Book' by Alf Ison, check out the abbreviations on page 2 - as that superscript squiggle looks a lot like the first one on pg 25?

[Mary from Italy]

Thanks, Phoenix. "Anne Pale one Cowe" it is, then :)

[Mary from Italy]

Thanks, Penelope - for the moment I think I'll go with Pale, because that's what it looks most like in the husband's will. I'm still a bit dubious, though, as I can't find any Pales in the area.

The handwriting in the will isn't very consistent - the final "e" is written in at least two different ways, with and without a squiggle.

[Janet]

This is what I think the whole sentence reads:

"my executor of this my last will and testament Also I give unto my grandchild Anne Palis? one horse and all other wills voided Isabella Jackson Thomas Clifton"

Anne's name is still unclear but it is more than Anne Pale.
there is clearly more to the will from before this sentence and I doubt a house would be the last item in the will. If it was a house this would surely be the first item mentioned?

Janet

[Penelope]

Ah Mary if you have it in another hand, and it looks like 'Pale' it has to be that, eh? It's beautiful handwriting.

[Phoenix]

It's worth looking for all references to "Pale" and spreading your net further to all surnames beginning with "Pal". If the surname has been contracted, it is still likely to be recorded as Pale by some transcribers.

Just as you find the occasional Coop on the IGI.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Could she be Isabel Farjeon? (Farjon)

OC

[tugman]

Hello
This is my best shot at it.
My Executor of this my last Will and Testament. Also i give to my grandchild
Anne Pale our Ceibe and all other Wills voide.
Asabell Farrso[n][i],Thomas Clifton.

Think CEIBE is a house the O with a line through is a C.

Hope that helps you out.
tugman

[Mary from Italy]

Could she be Isabel Farjeon? (Farjon)



No, it's definitely Jackson - even TNA transcribed it like that. It's the Jackson family of Wall in Staffordshire that I'm researching, and the surname's very clearly written in her husband's will.

[Mary from Italy]

Thanks, tugman. I think Cowe is the most likely at the moment - I still have to transcribe the husband's will, so maybe that will cast some light on it.

[tugman]

Hello Mary
I passed it over to people who do a lot of transcribing. Their reply.
I think in this case it is Ann Pale and one cowe. I do not think it says 'our'. The n & e look very much like the n & e in Anne.
tugman