2 Annies - opinions please

[Mavis by the Moor]

Nother Update - see post 51, especially for Merry

UPDATE - see post 20, especially for Merry

I have the marriage cert. of Annie Clasper in 1913, when she says she is 20 - ie born c1893

There are 2 births on FreeBMD for Annie Clasper in Durham, 1886 & 1892, I have both, and they have the same parents.

There is one death in Dec qtr 1892, given age 0. The transcription is from a typed list which definitely says 0.

Do you reckon that the 0 is a misread 6 from the original.

Otherwise it means they gave a child who (as it turned out only lived a few months) the same name as one that was alive, and the surviving Annie lied about her age by 6 yrs when she got married.

I would add, that think I've found mother Susanna with 2 children, but no Annie in 1901 (father John probably in prison). RG12/4181/93/3

I know I could order the cert. but I've already spent more on this branch than I wanted to.:eek:

Thanks for your opinions.

[Jools in Scarborough]

Have you eliminated these two on the 1901?

Annie CLASPER 16 Durham, Grangevilla living Ouston
Annie CLASPER 18 Bishopwearmouth Durham, living Seaham

Jools

[Mavis by the Moor]

Hi Jools,

Can't get into Ancestry to look (grr), but hopefully these are the ones born 1882 & 1884, unless she lied about her age on marriage mine should not have been born until 1892 so should only be 9 in 1901.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I noticed she has a middle initial M on the marriage index, which would bring these into play:

Births Q2 1892
Clasper Mary Hannah Gateshead 10a 1000

Births Q1 1894
Clasper Mary Annie Gateshead 10a 936

:)

[Mavis by the Moor]

Thank you Merry!!!! There I am trying not to buy a death cert, and now you give me an alternative birth cert. to worry about. She married as Annie Mary, which would make Mary Annie a possibility. **********

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Sorry Mavis!

in 1901 there's Mary H (Hannah?) with parents John R and Mary living at Longbenton, Northumberland

and Mary dau of Edward Wm and Janet, living at Westgate, Durham.

I couldn't find Susanna and children...the ref you gave was 1891 I think.....

Have you got the marriage cert with dad's name??

[Mavis by the Moor]

Father's name John (and there's plenty of John Claspers in Co Durham!). Yes Susannah ref was 1891, haven't found her on 1901, but no death on FreeBMD either. I can't even get into Ancestry to follow any leads at the moment.

[George]

I have a child who died at a few weeks old, had his birth and death registered on the same day but the informant (who was a neighbour) got his
1st name wrong and had him registered as Walter but he was baptised the day after his birth as Frank. The parents already had a son called Walter who was much older and lived.

This baby was registered and buried as Walter Sunley but in reality his name was Frank Sunley. I suspect his parents probably never knew of this error.

Don't take the indexes for granted, check for her baptism record to be sure of her name.

George

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I've found Susannah in 1901:

RG13; Piece: 4756; Folio: 111; Page: 22

John is a river waterman. They have a dau aged 4 called Anne, but she seems a bit young.

Mary Hannah's father was John too.....But I'm wondering if the one called Mary I found maybe didn't have a middle name so we have not yet found Mary Annie on the 1901?

What was John's occupation?

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Hmmm, there are no plain Mary's or any other Mary X's (middle name) registered in Gateshead 1891-1895.

[Mavis by the Moor]

Thanks for that encouraging thought George (lol). From your experience it's possible that the second Annie wasn't an Annie, but her birth & death was registered with that name. Which leaves me wth Merry's Mary Annie, or an Annie that lied about her age.


I'm really going off this Clasper line, every step is incredibly hard work!!!

Still can't get into Ancestry.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

You don't happen to know when she died, do you?

[Mavis by the Moor]

Oh Merry!! 1886 Annies' birth certs give father as waterman, 1892 a labourer in shipyard; 1913 marriage cert, gives father as miner;
1881 census John & Susannah (RG11/5017/119/39), John is a coal trimmer!!
Yes Annie should really be 8, but both certs I have the parents are John & Susannah, don't tell me they called another one Annie!!

[Mavis by the Moor]

Don't know for sure when she died, Merry. Might be able to get an idea, think it was 1970's.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

If it was after 1969 the death index entry will give her supposed dob!

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Mavis, these are three John Claspers from TNA 1901 census index with correct occupations:

John Clasper 41 Durham Durham Durham Sherburn Coal Miner Engineman Above Gd
John Clasper 31 Durham Waldridge Durham Waldridge Coal Miner Hewer
John G Clasper 32 Durham East Murton Durham East Murton Coal Miner Hewer

I'm going to try and find each of them on Ancestry to see hwat kids they have.....

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

John Clasper 41, wife Maria, 7 sons, two daus, neither are Ann or Mary and they are aged 6 mths and 16 years in 1901.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

John Clasper 31, wife Margaret, only one child....Thomas aged 1.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

John G Clasper 32, wife Mary, children Jane 7 Elizabeth 5 and William 2.

So that didn't seem to work too well!

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I tried Coal* and Hewer* as occs, but didn't turn up any more John's except teenage boys. :(

[George]

Don't rule out the possibility, thats all I'm saying

George

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

And the same old Q I always remember to ask about a week after the event!

Who were the marriage witnesses??

[Mavis by the Moor]

George not ruling out anything, just trying to find this woman before her marriage.

Merry, we might be getting somewhere, there's a Mary a Clasper, grand daughter aged 8 at East Murton. Which could fit with the John Clasper aged 32, what thinks you?

[Mavis by the Moor]

You don't think marriage witnesses are any use with this family Merry (lol). They are Charles and Ethel Fennell

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I didn't see that!

We need to trace the grandparents back to see if John turns up in their house (or any John!! pmsl)

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Hmmm, if the place of birth is correct for Mary A then she will prob be this one:

Births Q3 1892
Clasper Mary Alice M Easington 10a 471

Alice to Annie????

[Mavis by the Moor]

John George Clasper married Mary Morton in 1892 Easington district - which contains Murton.

Just seen your last post, darn was hoping she was Mary Annie.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I see it's the other grandparents!

Must be this couple:

Marriages Q3 1892
CLASPER John George Easington 10a 550
Morton Mary Easington 10a 550

I think I mentioned them earlier with dau Jane 7 and two other children.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I think you should consider looking for the death reg :(

[Lyn A]

Just to complicate it further....
There is a John Clasper, wife Mary in 1901, who is a Colliery worker (case filler, I think it said.)
With them is a neice, Annie Spoors, who would be the right age for your Annie.

RG13; Piece: 4665; Folio: 191; Page: 45.

[Mavis by the Moor]

Thanks for all your help Merry, must give up for tonight and think about going to bed.
Re death cert, if she married as 20yrs, when her spouse was 22yrs, she'd probably keep 1893 as her year of birth as far as any informant would know, don't you think?

[Mavis by the Moor]

Thanks for adding that little complication Lyn!
Think my brain has had it for tonight, will try again tomorrow.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

After 1969 they may have recorded the full date of birth, so knowing she was born 2nd July or 29th October might help a lot! (also the place of birth should be on the death cert too)

[Mavis by the Moor]

Right I'll will quiz the family see if they can get me any closer to the year before I start trawling Ancestry. Other wise it's the long haul!! If Ancestry lets me in. And to think this was my bit of relaxation (lol) after clearing up from the builders being here all last week!!!!!!!!!!

[Mavis by the Moor]

Thought you might like a picture of the woman causing all these problems!!

8681

[Olde Crone Holden]

Mavis

She's laughing at you...look at that expression!

OC

[Mavis by the Moor]

Yes well, she knows the answer, O.C.!!

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

As I've not got anything I would rather be doing (like writing Xmas cards) I thought I'd have a look for her death....I've looked at both A's and M's

I began with 1970 and went forwards.....here are some possibles:

1972 Q2 Burn Annie Rotherham 2c 1578 dob 14th Aug 1891
(no sensible matching Clasper birth)

1975 Q2 Burn Annie Gateshead 2 0004 dob 12th July 1896
(could tie in with
Births Q3 1896 Clasper Annie S. Shields 10a 855
but could a 17 year old pass themselves as 20? Possibly.....but as her parent would have had to give consent anyway, as she said she was 20, why lie?)

I got bored at the end of 1979!

Needless to say, I have not been able to find Annie b 1896 on the 1901 census and she doesn't seem to have died between 1896 and 1901 :(

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

lol

Silly me..,...it's the John and Susannah one!!

RG13; Piece: 4756; Folio: 111; Page: 22

He's the waterman, so I'm not sure how likely it is he would have ended up in a mine.

I suppose if you were to contact the local register office and ask if Annie Clasper registered Q3 1896 was born on the 12th July??!!

Unless you know either the real date Annie died by now, or you forgot to tell me she remarried!! pmsl!!

[Mavis by the Moor]

Hi Merry, that was stirling work you did, thank you.
No haven't yet contacted family for possible dod. She didn't remarry, have a photo of her & John Burn in their 60's(?), and I believe relation born 1964 remembers them, hence my feeling death was in 1970's, may not be able to find out until New Year when Newcastle family are visited. The John & Susannah's Annie was born either 1886 or 1892, depending which one died! Story is this whole family (ie Claspers/Burns) never moved far from Newcastle area.
Suspect that even if she was born Mary as she was married Annie and always called Annie, she probably died as Annie.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

The John & Susannah's Annie was born either 1886 or 1892, depending which one died! Story is this whole family (ie Claspers/Burns) never moved far from Newcastle area.
Suspect that even if she was born Mary as she was married Annie and always called Annie, she probably died as Annie.

Are you sure??

In 1901 their Annie is aged 4 which would tie in with the birth reg I found.

Are these not all conected entries?:

Births Q2 1886
CLASPER Annie Gateshead 10a 945 (I think you have this cert)


Deaths Mar 1890
Clasper Annie 4 Newcastle T. 10b 73 (death of the above?)

and

Births Q4 1892
Clasper Annie Gateshead 10a 882 (think you have this one too)

Deaths Dec 1892
Clasper Annie 0 Gateshead 10a 484 (death in the same Q??)

followed by the one who lived:

Births Q3 1896
Clasper Annie S. Shields 10a 855

Maybe she thought she was older if she found her sister's birth cert in the drawer at home??!!!!

[Mavis by the Moor]

Oh Merry!!!! I missed the first death and the last birth, mind you I've been working on her age from her marriage cert. which explains missing the 3rd birth, don't even know she is John & Susannah's, only know her marriage cert. details - married Gateshead, father John, occupation Coal miner (shifter). And i knocked the file on the floor last thing last night and all the papers came out!!
Thanks for all your help, think I'm going to have to put this one on the back burner, it's my 9 yr old nephew's tree, and having got some more photos for his book, I wanted to add a "Where my Ancestors came from" page, and his father's side the Burn/Clasper bunch are a bit thin on the ground, but he's going to have to put up with a dot in the Newcastle area for all of them, (compared with a couple of dozen dots spread over England for his mother's side!).
Must get back to in-laws side as a family Xmas pressie.
Thanks again.

[Mavis by the Moor]

Update: Have found out that she died 1975 in the spring, which looks like she's the Q3 1896 birth.
So why did she say she was 20 in 1913 when she got married?
Because her husband was 22, because she thought she was and found out later when her birth year was?, she got married in the parish church, did they think the vicar would say she was too young?
I suppose I've got to order that birth cert now, see if she has the same parents as the other 2, if so, fancy giving the daughters the same name until one of them survived!!

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Let's hope the birth cert has the exact same dob!!

[Mavis by the Moor]

I'm almost afraid to order it!

If she's the most likely Annie Clasper on 1901 census RG13/4702/50/20

Then she might not be the daughter of John & Susannah, as she's the 'step daughter' of Matt & Jane.
More likely she is the daughter of John & Susannah and they've all gone missing as I can't find an obvious John & Susannah in 1901.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I've already posted John Susanna and little Annie somewhere on this thread for 1901!! (I'll have a look)

Who are Matt and Jane??!

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

This is the one I thought she was!

RG13; Piece: 4756; Folio: 111; Page: 22

[Mavis by the Moor]

Ah a mistranscription!!!
Sorry Merry, forgot you'd found them in 1901.
Well it's all on the birth cert now, probably after Xmas I asume.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

The postman will wonder what you're up to, swigging brandy first thing in the morning when he brings you the dreaded envelope!! lol

[Mavis by the Moor]

Unfortunately, or probably fortunately, my post comes long after I've left for work. But at least it means when I get a cert. I can go straight onto the computer.
Watch out for update, when it arrives.
Thanks again for your input.

[Mavis by the Moor]

Birth Cert arrived, GRO are getting efficient, dob ties in with 1975 death, and yes :) it's the same parents John & Susannah (nee McKenna), determined to have an Annie in the family weren't they!
So the mistranscribed 'Clasters' you found on 1901 Merry are them. Off now to get rid of the wrong Annies and start on Susannah McKenna, think I have her birth, Sep qtr 1858.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Oooh, that's good!

But you don't really want Mc's in your tree :( Only because they can be very difficult to search for online.)

Mc?
Mac?
McK?
Mc K?
MacK?
Mac K?

nightmare!! lol

[Mavis by the Moor]

Thanks for that note of encouragement Merry, have a great Christmas!!!:D

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

lol!! :)

You too, Mavis!