The Winner of WDWTYA? 6th December 2007 is.....

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Granny Lynne!!!

Well done!!!

[Pat Hope]

Congratulations Lynne

[brenmac]

congratulations brenda xxx

[Bo the Bodger]

Hope you are as lucky as I was

[jennie]

Well done Lynne i hope you get some walls knocked down.

[jemima puddleduck]

Well done, Lynne. Hope you have as good a week as I've just had!

[Granny Lynne]

WOW! Thanks so much for picking me! I never for one moment thought I would win when I put my name forward.
I must admit I didn't even know for sure what this entailed so need a little time to get my information together.
Thanks again, back soon.
Lynne
:) :) :)

[Granny Lynne]

Right, here goes!
Elizabeth Ford married Patrick Ford on 10 June 1862 at the Catholic Parish Church, Manchester. Elizabeth is 25 and a spinster, father Andrew Ford, mechanic, address 349 Odham Road. Patrick is 26, a mechanic, father Edward Ford, labourer, address 485 Rochdale Road.
1861:-
Elizabeth is with parents, Andrew and Mary at 11 Davidson Street, Salford, aged 23 born Liverpool. Andrew is a Mechanic, iron foundry, aged 56, born Ireland, mary 55, born Ireland. (plus a boarder).
Patrick 26, an Iron Dresser, with parents, Edward 64, a labourer and Esther 60, sister, Maria 24, all born Ireland, living at 46 West Union Street, Salford. this is where Edward died on 6 March 1862, (although Patrick's marriage cert does not mention this). Informant is John Ford - we will come to him later!)
1851:-
Elizabeth, aged 16, born Liverpool, Andrew 54? (not clear) born Manchester, Mary 49 born Ireland (plus 2 lodgers).
No trace of Patrick.

So, what I need to find out is whether Patrick and Elizabeth were cousins. An elderly cousin of my dad's told me they were and that they were allowed to marry because Elizabeth had been orphaned. However, I have proof that this is not the case because her father, Andrew did not die until 1867.
I cannot find any trace of Elizabeth's birth which makes me think she was born pre-registration and I cannot get to Liverpool to check the Parish Records.

More to follow.

Lynne

[borobabs]

Congratulations Lynn hope you get loads help ;;;

[Granny Lynne]

1871:- Patrick, 32, an Iron Dresser, born Roscommon (this had already been established as I have his parent's marriage record), Elizabeth, 32, cotton weaver, born Liverpool. Children, Francis, 7, Edward 2 and Esther 1 month, all born Manchester. Mother, Esther, widow, 75, sister, Maria, unmarried 34 plus a boarder).

1875:- Patrick dies, aged 39 at 131 Robert Hall Street, Salford, Informant J Connolly (Elizabeth's nephew).

1880:- Elizabeth remarries, aged 41 to James Masterson a widower, aged 43, Warehouseman.

1881:- Elizabeth, 42, born Liverpool, James, 44, Warehopuse porter, born Ireland and Elizabeth's son Edward, 12, born Salford, living at 4 Lime Street, Newton, Manchester.

1891:- James, 60, Army Pensioner, born Ireland, Lizzie, 52, born Manchester! boarding with John Connolly (Elizabeth's nephew) at 51 Ash Street, New Cross, Manchester. There is also a Lilly Masterson, aged 11 living with them. I am trying to find out whether she was James' daughter from his previous marriage or James & Elizabeth's daughter but I cannot find her birth.

There are a couple more branches to sort out but I've got to go and do some decorating for MIL now, then off to look after grandchildren for the weekend.
I will try to get back on over the weekend and will take my family files with me but failing that I will be back on Monday with the rest.

Thanks in advance for any help with this.

Lynne

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Quote:

1891:- James, 60, Army Pensioner, born Ireland, Lizzie, 52, born Manchester! boarding with John Connolly (Elizabeth's nephew) at 51 Ash Street, New Cross, Manchester. There is also a Lilly Masterson, aged 11 living with them. I am trying to find out whether she was James' daughter from his previous marriage or James & Elizabeth's daughter but I cannot find her birth.

I did wonder whether Lilly had the wrong surname and should belong to the couple inbetween (Ferguson, I think....sorry, I was looking several hours ago!), but as I can't find them in 1881 or 1901 that thought hasn't helped much!!

As for the Patrick and Elizabeth being cousins, I presume you were thinking their father's would be brothers?? I'm not sure how we can establish that without ref to the Irish PR's??? I wonder why your elderly cousin obviously thought cousin marriages were a bit dodgy (of course they 100% legal!) but chose to suggest it was OK if a party was an orphan? Seems an dd sort of notion to have? Or maybe it was truely what they believed??

[KiteRunner]

Not sure whether you already have Elizabeth on the 1841?

HO107 Piece 577 Book 20 Civil Parish: Manchester Lancashire Enumeration District 36 Folio 21 Page 37

Waley(? Whalley on the second page!) Street, Manchester

Andrew Ford 35 Iron Dresser I
Mary Do 35 I
Bridget Ford 14 Spinner I
Elizabeth Do 7 I

There are also some Rownalls who are supposed to be in the same household, but I doubt if they are relatives because none of them comes from Ireland.

So, they say Elizabeth was born in Ireland on that one!

[Granny Lynne]

Merry
Yes, I also wondered why my elderly relative said that but I think there is a common misconception that cousin marriages were 'not allowed'. I think his idea was that Patrick would be able to 'look after' Elizabeth so to speak.

Kite
No, I hadn't found Elizabeth in 1841. Thank you so much for that. So I now wonder if Elizabeth was really born in Ireland.

EDIT: I have just noticed, she is 7 in 1841 which makes her YOB 1834! So that would mean she was 28 when she married Patrick, which makes me wonder why she would lie about her age when he would surely know how old she was?

Does anyone know how I can find out when they came over to England?

I am now going to get my notes out and will be back later with some more puzzles.

Lynne

[KiteRunner]

Lynne, unfortunately there aren't any records of people coming over from Ireland to England (as far as I know) which makes it quite difficult!

[Granny Lynne]

Hi Kite

Oh, well it looks like I'm stuck on that one then. I might try to go over to Dublin in the spring and see if I can find anything on Andrew and Mary marrying in Roscommon to try to establish whether Andrew and Edward were brothers.

Now for the next bit of the mystery.

I have a marriage cert for Edward Ford, a bachelor aged 40, occupation carter, father John Ford deceased; Mary Ann Masterson, a spinster aged 36, father John Masterson coachman. Date of marriage 29/08/1869 St John the Evangelist, New Cross, Manchester. One of the witnesses is Patrick Ford.

I have found an Edward Ford in 1871, aged 40, born London with a wife, Mary Ann, aged 38, born Ireland and daughter, Margaret Ann, 6 months, born Pendleton, living in Pendleton, Lancs, with Mary Balber, Visitor. (This is the only family that matches).

In 1881 they are at 36 Thorpe Street, Newton, Manchester with 3 boarders named Bradey and Lynch.

In 1891 I find Mary Ann a widow aged 58 living at 14 Kent? Street, Pendleton, with Margaret aged 20 and a boarder. I have not yet located Edward's death record.

Question:
Is it likely that Mary Ann is the sister of James who married Elizabeth after Patrick died? Both have father, John a coachman and both born Ireland.

If Mary Ann is James' sister, then who is Edward? As he was born London, I am wondering whether his father, John was another brother of Edward snr and Andrew, making him Patrick and Elizabeth's cousin. I have not yet located John in any census.

Sorry if this is a bit muddled but so am I - LOL!

Lynne

[Granny Lynne]

Next mystery:-

Marriage dated 19/03/1859 of Francis Ford, a beerhouse keeper, aged 23, address 27 West Union Street, Salford, father Edward Ford, clerk in a Manchester warehouse. Eliza Delaney, aged 23, 7 Beswick Street, Salford, father James Delaney, deceased stonemason.

One of the witnesses is Elizabeth Ford. I did find Francis and Eliza in 1861 some time ago but have since 'lost' them. They were with Eliza's mother (cannot remember her name).

I cannot find them in any other census despite help in the past. Can anyone locate them? Is it likely that Francis is Patrick's brother?

That's all for now, have to take granddaughter Christmas shopping. Will be back later to see if anyone has come up with any ideas.

Thanks everyone in advance.

Lynne

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

*Lies down in darkened room*

I'm going to have to read that again later :)

[Granny Lynne]

Merry

Sorry about that! I know it's a lot to take in, I've been going round in circles for ages on these Fords.

And I have MORE mysteries to come - LOL!!

Be afraid, be VERY afraid :D :D

Lynne
;) ;)

[Elaine ..Spain]

Next mystery:-

Marriage dated 19/03/1859 of Francis Ford, a beerhouse keeper, aged 23, address 27 West Union Street, Salford, father Edward Ford, clerk in a Manchester warehouse. Eliza Delaney, aged 23, 7 Beswick Street, Salford, father James Delaney, deceased stonemason.



Do you have the places of birth for Francis and Eliza?

[KiteRunner]

Lynne, I'm afraid I'm just going round in circles looking for Francis and Eliza. Do you have any notes of the 1861 census entry, please?

[Granny Lynne]

Hi Elaine / Kite
I am pretty sure they were both born Ireland. I could kick myself for losing the census entry I found ages ago. I will look through all my paperwork and come back tomorrow to let you know if I have found anything.
Thank you both for coming back to the thread, I was beginning to think I had become invisible - LOL!!
Lynne

[Granny Lynne]

PS: Eliza's mother was Margaret Delaney.
Lynne

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I've tried using the search on findmypast for households containing Delaney and Ford, but there's no matches. I could ask for varients on one name or the other (so did that) but not varients of both together.

[Granny Lynne]

Thanks for trying Merry. I will come back tomorrow when I have checked my paperwork.
Lynne

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Thank you both for coming back to the thread, I was beginning to think I had become invisible - LOL!!
Lynne

I think we are not quite sure what we can do to help??

[Granny Lynne]

OK, thanks Merry.
Is it OK if I come back with another one tomorrow?
Lynne

[Elaine ..Spain]

Keep them coming Lynne - we might eventually find one that we can help you with! :)

[Granny Lynne]

OK Elaine, Thanks, Be back 2morro.
Lynne

[KiteRunner]

I thought I'd found them for a minute as there is a Margret Delany (age 52) in Salford in 1861 with a daughter Eliza age 25, but Eliza is unmarried and there is no Francis. Bother!

[KiteRunner]

I've looked at all the male Fran*s born Ireland 1835-1839 and in Lancashire on the 1861, and got precisely nowhere!

[Granny Lynne]

Good morning all you lovely people who are trying to help me.
Well, I have looked through all my paperwork and cannot find ANYTHING. Maybe I was dreaming that I'd found them. (But I know I definitely did find them, it's just so frustrating).
Anyway, I will look for something else for you to get your teeth into - back soon.
Thanks again.
Lynne

[Granny Lynne]

Right, here goes! Can anyone find Sarah Owen, born 1876 after 1891 census.

This is her family in 1881:-
Joseph Thos. OWEN Head M Male 36 Manchester, Provision Dealer
Ann OWEN Wife M Female 37 Manchester,
Fanny OWEN Daur U Female 15 Manchester,
Joseph Thos. OWEN Son Male 13 Manchester, Scholar
John OWEN Son Male 8 Manchester, Scholar
James OWEN Son Male 6 Manchester, Scholar
Alice OWEN Daur Female 10 Manchester, Scholar
Sarah OWEN Daur Female 4 Manchester, Scholar
Joseph ROBINSON Boarder U Male 61 Manchester, Labourer In Printing Works (Joseph Snr's uncle).

Joseph Thomas Snr died 7/3/1889 and Ann remarried on 23/5/1889 (a bit too quick for my liking - LOL!) to Thomas Parker.

I have them in 1891:-
Thomas Parker 52 (Durham, Newcastle)
Ann Parker 47
James Owen 16
Elizabeth Parker 16 (Warwickshire, Birmingham)
Sarah Owen 14

All the other children had moved out by then and I have all their marriages but I cannot find Sarah, either married or unmarried in 1901. I have tried all the usual methods, ie: checking marriages then looking for Sarah with the appropriate surname and age but without any luck.

Can anyone find her or advise me where to look next please?
I would also like to find Thomas Parker with his previous family but again have had no luck with that.

Thanks in advance.
Lynne

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

It's a pity we can't establish which is Sarah's birth registration as there are various possible middle names which might help pin down a marriage.

[Granny Lynne]

Hi Merry
I think the most likely one is
Dec Qtr Prestwich 8d 353
as most of her siblings were registered in Prestwich (except Alice who was registered in Reddish, Stockport).
Lynne

[KiteRunner]

Lynne, do you have the name and occupation of Thomas Parker's father from his marriage cert, please?

[KiteRunner]

Oh dear, there are so many Sarah Owens! This could take a while...!

[Granny Lynne]

Hi Kite

Sorry, my internet connection went down so I have just spent the last hour or so looking for Francis Ford in 1861.

Thomas Parker's father was Peter Parker, a basket maker.

Lynne

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Oh dear, there are so many Sarah Owens! This could take a while...!

As there are lots of Sarah Owens born around 1877 in Manchester and most of those probably married in the area, I can't see how we would be able to tell them apart in 1901 unless the had other family members living with them.

For instance, I have eliminated ONE marriage :) to John Fishburn in 1895, because though there are Owens in their house in 1901 they are not the right Owens!!

[Granny Lynne]

Merry

It looks like I will have to give up on this one too then until I can get to see the parish records.

I think I have picked all the impossible puzzles in my tree - LOL!! If I can come up with any easier ones before Thursday I will come back with the info.

In the meantime, thank you all for all your help.

Lynne

[vikki brace]

Is Peter recorded as deceased on marriage cert?

[Granny Lynne]

Vikki
Yes he is.
Lynne

[Pat Hope]

Lynne ........which parish records do you want looking up? I will probably be going to the library on Thursday

[Granny Lynne]

Hi Pat
I will PM you.
Lynne