My grandad's mysterious double life?

[karensainsbury]

I have been at a brickwall for ages with my grandfather,Francis Smith,who I have in the 1901 census as a carman but can get no further back with.

Earlies this year I was contacted by a lady in new Zealand whom I shall call B, who believes he was also her grandfather & walked out when his kids were small, sometime after 1913.

My first aunt was born in 1919 & I know grandad never married nanny so this could fit. The church where B's Francis Smith married is very close to where grandad was born & also to his 1901 address.

I was very excited to learn that B had an uncle, Francis Smith junior, who served on HMS Welshman in WW2, was based in Malta & killed when the ship was torpedoed. My mum had a Francis Smith, who she believed to be some sort of cousin, who lived with her & her parents for some time & served & died in identical circumstances. Surely they must be one & the same man, & therefore Mum's brother, not cousin, & the link proven?

I thought so until Mum & B exchanged photos of the aforesaid Frank &, frustratingly, neither recognised the others photo. In fact Mum was adamant B's photo was not her Frank.

Any ideas how I can prove or disprove this connection?

[Olde Crone Holden]

DNA??? Lol.

Perhaps a comparison of the relevant birth certs might throw up a common factor that you can recognise.

OC

[karensainsbury]

Hi OC.

We both have copies of the identical birth certificate, but while mine was passed on to me by my mother, B got hers by searching through the BMDs for a likely candidate & hitting on my grandad.

[karensainsbury]

Just had a thought.

OC - did you mean Grandad's birth cert, or the certs of his children?
(3 by my nan & 3 by B's nan).

[AbbyW]

On your orginal BC for your grandad does the fathers name match the name of the grooms father on B's grandfathers marriage certficate?

[karensainsbury]

Good point, Abby.

Yes, it does, although as his father was also Francis Smith, I doubt whether you'd call that conclusive proof! However, both certificates also give the father's occupation as upholsterer. B's certificate also gives the groom's occupation as upholsterer, but Mum was unaware of grandad ever having worked as an upholsterer, but then she didn't know he'd ever worked as a carman either!

She does remember that her grandfather had his own small upholstery business & that her cousin Bill ( Grandad's brother) worked in the business, so it must be quite possible that Grandad did too at some point.

[samesizedfeet]

there are 9 hits for Fran* Smith Upholsterer on the 1901 census - so maybe the route to go is to concentrate on Francis SMith senior who is known to be an upholsterer

[samesizedfeet]

Frances Smith 33 London St Marylebone London St Marylebone Father Of Upholsterers Irving
Francis J Smith 41 London London Islington Spinner Upholsters
Francis Smith 49 London London Bethnal Green Upholsterer
Frank Smith 24 Surrey Camberwell Ln Middlesex Tottenham Upholsterer
Francis F Smith 14 Northampton Duston Northamptonshire Duston Upholster
Frank Smith 20 Birmingham Birmingham Balsall Heath Upholsterer
Frank J Smith 37 Somerset Bath Somerset Bath Upholsterer
Frank Smith 48 Hampshire Andover Essex Walthamstow Upholsterer
Frank Smith 40 Gainsborough Lincolnshire Kent Dover Upholsterer & French Polisher


(taken fron National Archives 1901 census database)

[karensainsbury]

Hi Zoe,

I have them on the 1901 census ref RG13/282 p22, living in Ravenscroft St, Bethnal Green.

Grandad was born at 51 Cowper St, Finsbury & B's grandfather married at St Mary's church, Hoxton. All 3 addresses are on the same page of the London A-Z so fairly close together.

[karensainsbury]

Well Zoe,

the one aged 49 is my great-grandad.

The 24 year old is off the hook as B's Grandad was 23 when he married in 1906,(the same age my grandad was in that year).

That leaves 2 others in London who could just about be B's grandad's father, if they are 2 different people, altho one would have been very young when he became a father.

[karensainsbury]

I've found the 41 year old. His wife is only 32 ie born c 1869, which would make her only c14 when B's Grandad was born. Also there is no record of them having any children on the 1901 census, so there certainly aren't any outstanding candidates for an alternative Francis Smith the elder.

[karensainsbury]

Just back from having a balti & one of my friends had a thought - would there be a list somewhere of all the people on HMS Welshman at the time it sank, cos if there was only one Francis Smith, that would prove the whole thing must be true, wouldn't it?

[Christine in Herts]

There are two recorded on the CWGC site for HMS Welshman:

Name: SMITH, FRANK SIDNEY
Initials: F S
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Able Seaman
Regiment/Service: Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve
Unit Text: H.M.S. Welshman.
Age: 25
Date of Death: 01/02/1943
Service No: C/LD/X 3392
Additional information: Son of William and Grace Smith; husband of Mary Smith, of Liverpool.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: 73, 3.
Memorial: CHATHAM NAVAL MEMORIAL

and

Name: SMITH, FRANCIS HENRY
Initials: F H
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Leading Writer
Regiment/Service: Royal Navy
Unit Text: H.M.S. Welshman.
Date of Death: 01/02/1943
Service No: C/MX 68509
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: XXIV. A. 16.
Cemetery: EL ALAMEIN WAR CEMETERY

But you can't tell much (age/family) about the one who's buried in El Alamein War Cemetery.

Christine

[Christine in Herts]

Some more info about the ship here:
uboat.net - Allied Warships - Minelayer HMS Welshman of the Abdiel class (http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/3956.html)

Christine

[karensainsbury]

That's brilliant, Christine. Thank you.

The one buried in El Alamein cemetery is Mum's cousin, or should I say brother. The other one was from Liverpool & the parents' names don't fit at all, so B & I must be related to the same one.

So what does anyone think - can I consider the case proven, so that my mum had a brother & 2 sisters she never knew about & I have a cousin I've never met in New Zealand, or do I need more evidence?

[Christine in Herts]

I think I'd consider the case proven for myself, but others may still ask for more.

Is it worth seeing if you have enough to back you up to obtain his service record from the Navy? That should give you quite a bit more - for one family or the other! The tricky bit would be proving your right to get the info. I know this topic has been raised on one or two threads lately. The info should be in the Wiki by now.

Christine

[karensainsbury]

What sort of information would be contained in that.

Would it give details of his family?

[karensainsbury]

I've tried going onto National Archives to search for a naval record there.

I tried typing in Francis Smith & for place I tried both HMS Welshman & Malta, where I know he was stationed as a writer to the vice-admiral but got the "no matches" message both times.

Am I doing something wrong?:confused:

[Christine in Herts]

You may be able to see his name in the ship's muster, but I doubt that a Writer's name would appear as a specific search-term on TNA online. You may need to go to Kew, yourself, or get someone to do so for you. You might be able to find the specific reference for the ship's muster online, though. (I did for a couple of much earlier ships - one of which was HMS Victory.)

The actual service record would be too recent to be at Kew, I should have thought. Have you looked on the Wiki for research guidance? Or through some of the threads in the last few weeks? I feel sure that I've read about exactly this research challenge in another thread (or two) very recently.

Christine

[karensainsbury]

Thanks again, Christine.

Can anyone remember these threads & who posted them? Unfortunately I didn't see them.

[vikki brace]

I don't know if this will help but I found this

There is a Welshman Association. and a Mr.Payne has information & can be contacted at philyn2@aol.com (philyn2@aol.com). There are some other deatails on

Welshman-Manxman (http://www.killifish.f9.co.uk/Malta%20WWII/Welshman-Manxman.htm)

[karensainsbury]

Thanks Vikki,

I've tried sending them an e-mail regarding my uncle's naval record.

It would be great if I could find another photo of him as Mum & B only have one each, and, as I mentioned, neither recognises the other's photo!

I wonder whether any photos might still exist of the crew or off the staff in Malta, where he was stationed for some time.

[JDGen]

Do the photographs appear to be of the same person to you? Could you post them so that listers can do a comparison?

JDGen

[vikki brace]

I wonder whether any photos might still exist of the crew or off the staff in Malta, where he was stationed for some time.

There might be crew pictures somewhere, the Welshman Assosiation might be able to help with that too.

[yummy-mummy-amy]

if you google "hms welshman" (as i have typed it) there are loads of sites, and some of them have got pictures on.

[karensainsbury]

Just thought of a snag - I don't think he would actually be crew as such. He was based in Malta in the vice-admiral's office & was just unfortunate to be on the ship when it was hit. I don't know whether he travelled on it regularly or not.
The e-mail link was no good - my e-mail was returned undelivered.
If I can work out how to put a photo on here I might try that, but don't hold your breath!!!!!!!

[geniedi]

is it this one?

[karensainsbury]

Yes it is - you beat me to it!

[geniedi]

You can always get a mod to delete it after you have saved the info.